Mirror Image and Combat Reflexes

[azhrei_fje]

As we say in court- "assuming facts not in evidence, your Honor!"

Can you be more specific?

Against a mage who has none of that, just the MM vs MI, a MI figment struck by a MM should be destroyed- it has been hit by the spell.

Do you know something that refutes the text of the spell description for MI? It specifically says that a successful attack destroys an image. A successful attack is one which does damage. A magic missile cannot do damage to an inanimate object (ignoring for the moment the issue regarding targeting). Therefore, the MM does not destroy an image.

If you can show me the error of the above logic, please do so.

The magic of the spell causes the missile to streak from the caster's finger to the target. A spell description that has a Target entry is defining what can be affected by the spell, not what can be targeted (yeah, bad use of the word "target" in the first case).

If a caster targets an illusion of a kobold and there is an ogre behind it, I would allow the missile to damage the ogre. If there was an illusionary wall and the caster shot a missile at it, I would rule that it could hit a creature that occupies the same space. There is no way to target a particular location on a creature's body with MM, why should the caster have to be able to see though an illusion to the creature hidden behind it? After all, what mage is going to go around targeting 9 different squares, one per MM, in an attempt to try to hit something? They'll just cast see invisible or dispel magic or true seeing or whatever, and then cast MM.

In summary, I would rule that MM cast at a creature protected by MI could hit images (and do no damage, thus they are not destroyed) or could hit the creature itself (in which case it takes damage). As I mentioned above, this fits the power level of the spell (better than shield, but only barely; it'll last much less time if there's a fighter around to use melee or ranged attacks).

Concerning the AoO, I would allow it. If the caster provokes on AoO, so do the images. If the caster doesn't, then the images don't. Basically, any of the images could be the caster and the caster could be any of the images. The only sane thing to do is to treat them the same as the caster in as many ways as possible. IMO, this is why the FAQ treats all images as occupying the same 5' square as the caster. Simplicity.

I would not, however, allow the Cleave or Great Cleave feats to trigger when an image is destroyed. The targeted images are not "reduced to 0 hp" or "dropped", so those feats don't apply.

Just my $.02

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Do you know something that refutes the text of the spell description for MI? It specifically says that a successful attack destroys an image. A successful attack is one which does damage. A magic missile cannot do damage to an inanimate object (ignoring for the moment the issue regarding targeting). Therefore, the MM does not destroy an image.

If you can show me the error of the above logic, please do so.

There are many attack spells that do no damage whatsoever, like Enervate or Baleful Polymorph. By your definition of "successful attack" those spells cannot ever be "successful attacks"

Trips and Disarm attacks also do not deal damage. I'm sure there are others.

A successful attack is one that strikes its intended target.

 

[RigaMortus]

Do you know something that refutes the text of the spell description for MI? It specifically says that a successful attack destroys an image. A successful attack is one which does damage. A magic missile cannot do damage to an inanimate object (ignoring for the moment the issue regarding targeting). Therefore, the MM does not destroy an image.

The target for magic missile is "up to five creatures. An object is not a creature, therefore it is an invalid target to begin with. You can't even get the spell off if you plan on targetting something other than a creature. Just like I can't target a dog for Charm Person or a rope for Stone to Flesh...

If you can show me the error of the above logic, please do so.

Charm Person doesn't do damage... According to you, a "successful attack" is one that does damage. So does this mean you can't cast Charm Person on someone with MI? Or do you randomly pick a target, and if you picked an image then the image does not "poof" since Charm Person doesn't damage the image, and is therefore not a "successful attack"? Does Charm Person fizzle if you pick an image (my vote is that it would, but i reserve the right to change my mind as we continue to discuss this .

Here is my own question... If a character is knocked unconcious, but still has Mirror Image up, what happens if someone tries to coup de grace them? A CdG is an automatic hit, but do they still have to pick amongst the 'indistinguishable targets'? Same thing for rolling a nat 20... That is an automatic hit, do you still have to choose your target?

 

[ThirdWizard]

I'm fairly certain that charm person's target is something like "one humanoid creature." That would mean it can't target an image.

You *always* have to pick an image when taking an action against the caster. I also say when trying to cure the caster (etc), you must randomly pick.

I, of course, play by the text in the spell where the images can be up to five feet apart from each other. No need to roll randomly if you don't want to. Walk up to one of the images and try your action. If the real mage is the one on the other side of the illusionary group, then there's no way you can cure him. The "protection" goes both ways.

 

[dcollins]

I mean, he only gets to AoO against the Mage (because he can't AoO an image) but has a chance to miss with his because he might erroneously attack the images he can't attack? That doesn't make sense.

Except that that's the whole point of the mirror image spell. There's obviously only one guy in reality, the illusion just makes a whole set of obviously fake funhouse mirror images. When he casts a spell, obviously there's really only one guy casting a spell. And when you try to hit that one real guy, you randomly hit an image instead. That's the whole point of the mirror image spell.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

You're missing my point: if an image can't trigger an AoO- in other words cannot be a target of an AoO- then why should an image cause an AoO on the actual mage to miss?

The chance to miss that is the core of MI is based on the assumption that the attacker has made a mistake in which visible caster is real and which is image, causing the attacker to hit the wrong one. If an image can't trigger an AoO (if it cannot be hit by an AoO as a primary target), then it also shouldn't be able to be hit by an AoO by mistake (hit by an AoO as a mistaken primary target).

Either images trigger AoO's or they can't.

If it can, then the AoO can be triggered by the MI image and the actual mage can be missed when the attacker mistakes an image for the actual mage.

If it cannot, the only AoO will be on the mage who can't be missed (because of MI, at least) since the attacker is obviously not confusing the images for the mage.

 

[dcollins]

Again, with mirror image, there is only one opponent who happens to have a defensive spell protecting him. No, I don't let images independently provoke AOOs. (Nor do they independently act, have their own initiative, record damage, etc.)

Personally, I treat the caster of mirror image as a larger-faced creature on the battlemap, which simplifies lots of issues. There is only one creature, somewhere in a given space on the battlemap. This one creature can provoke AOOs as normal, but is protected by the mirror image random miss chance.

 

[azhrei_fje]

The target for magic missile is "up to five creatures. An object is not a creature, therefore it is an invalid target to begin with. You can't even get the spell off if you plan on targetting something other than a creature. Just like I can't target a dog for Charm Person or a rope for Stone to Flesh...

Sheesh. I specifically said I was ignoring the targeting issue for the first part of this discussion. If we assume that you could target an image, do you agree that the image doesn't take damage and therefore won't disappear?

Assuming you do, let's look at the MM target. It says "creatures" in the description. However, since inanimate objects cannot be damaged by the spell, why does the Target entry say that? Why not let the caster target anything he wants, then say that creatures are affected (take damage) and inanimate objects do not?

Oops, what do you know. That's what it says! As I pointed out, perhaps the use of the word "target" as a noun is being confused with "target" as a verb (such as, "I target the bull's eye with my arrow"). You can target a dog with charm person, but the spell won't affect the dog. Does this mean that you CAN NOT target the animal? No! You can target anything you want, but the spell will only be effective against the type of targets given in the spell description. Anything else is a no-op. (Sorry. Programming term that means an empty instruction. )

Charm Person doesn't do damage... According to you, a "successful attack" is one that does damage.

Yep. A successful attack does do damage. Can you give a single example of one that doesn't? And if you read the text of the invisibility spell, it says

The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe.

Note that invisibility doesn't say "successful attack", just "attack". Don't you see this as significant? I certainly do...

So does this mean you can't cast Charm Person on someone with MI? Or do you randomly pick a target, and if you picked an image then the image does not "poof" since Charm Person doesn't damage the image, and is therefore not a "successful attack"? Does Charm Person fizzle if you pick an image (my vote is that it would, but i reserve the right to change my mind as we continue to discuss this .

(Heh-heh, everyone here always reserves the right to change their mind! I know I certainly have by reading threads here on ENworld!)

Charm person is not an attack. However, it requires that you choose an intended recipient of the spell effect (I'm trying to stay away from the term "target" since it seems to be confusing the issue). That choice will be based on what the caster sees and they may choose an image instead of the actual creature because of it. (As DM, I would roll a random chance for image vs. protected creature, just as described by the MI spell.)

Here is my own question... If a character is knocked unconcious, but still has Mirror Image up, what happens if someone tries to coup de grace them? A CdG is an automatic hit, but do they still have to pick amongst the 'indistinguishable targets'? Same thing for rolling a nat 20... That is an automatic hit, do you still have to choose your target?

Unless specifically stated in the spell descriptions, spells do not terminate on the death of the spellcaster nor on the death of the affected creature(s). Of course, spells that the caster has to concentrate on will fade if the caster dies. But levitate your buddy into the air and then die, and your buddy is trapped until the spell expires. So I would rule that the CdG rule assumes that the target (er, "recipient of the intended action" ) is not protected. Since the MI spell is still in effect, the DM still rolls randomly and a single image per round would be destroyed. If the attackers knows about MI (and how would they not?) it would be much more efficient for them to go around kicking downed images! I would rule that you can kick while walking, so you could cover a lot of ground in 6 seconds, destroying images. Of course, the one which is not an image is likely to require a Balance Check (DC 10) because the PC won't be expecting it to be solid! (Unless there's only one left. Then I wouldn't require the check.)

 

[Hypersmurf]

Here is my own question... If a character is knocked unconcious, but still has Mirror Image up, what happens if someone tries to coup de grace them? A CdG is an automatic hit, but do they still have to pick amongst the 'indistinguishable targets'? Same thing for rolling a nat 20... That is an automatic hit, do you still have to choose your target?

A natural 20 against a target with concealment still has a 20% miss chance. A natural 20 with a magic weapon against an incorporeal creature still has a 50% chance to deal no damage.

If you roll a natural 20, you still need to determine what you automatically hit - the caster, or a figment. Likewise, with a CDG, you need to determine what you automatically hit and crit - the caster, or a figment.

-Hyp.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

azhrei_fje
A successful attack does do damage. Can you give a single example of one that doesn't?

I gave you several in post#92: Trip, Disarm, Enervate & Baleful Polymorph.

Other attacks that do no damage:

Bull Rush
Grapples (while you CAN deal damage, that is only one option among many, including simply pinning)
Overruns
splashing holy water on something that's not undead or unholy
splashing unlit oil upon any target.

Other attack spells that do no damage:

Bane
Banishment
Bigby's Grasping Hand
Blindness/deafness
Command
Crushing Despair
Dominate Person
Doom
Earthquake
Flesh to Stone
Ghoul Touch
Hold Person
Sleep
Statue
Touch of Idiocy
Trap the Soul