Mirror Image - Need a refresher course in this...

[Dracorat]

They aren't AoEs cause you check each target individually.

The only reason I don't allow Cleave in my campaigns is not due to the drop word, but rather the 'creature' word. A figment isn't a creature. It's a magic spell.

That said, it throws some ambiguity in the text "extra melee attack against another creature within reach" because one could argue that by my strict interpretation of the rules, if a creature was standing next to our mirror imaged creature and we felled the non-mirrored one, we would automatically know which mirror isn't really a mirror.

But I don't do that. I more or less rule that any target you don't yet know to be creature or not acts as creature until you directly interact with it in order to find out.

 

[Nail]

RAW arguments aside, I fail to see the imbalance of allowing a cleave to work "off of an image".

 

[Dracorat]

Just a matter of taste. But by preventing it, it makes mirror image a much more useful spell. A fighter with a good BAB and greater cleave can take a mirror image down within one attack cycle otherwise.

 

[mvincent]

Put me on the side of "cleave works against mirror images".

 

[Nail]

Just a matter of taste. But by preventing it, it makes mirror image a much more useful spell.

Mirror Image is a 2nd level spell. It's already quite useful as a 2nd level spell, even with allowing cleave.

For examples, read across several story hour threads. You'll see that Mirror Image is used all the way to level 20...and is often one of the first spells cast in a mid-level combat.

Mirror Image doesn't need to be "more useful".

 

[Dracorat]

I disagree.

From experience, most mages only use it when they are at risk of ranged attacks (along with Entropy). If they are in melee, usually displacement, blur or blink become the choice spell.

At least when you add in not being able to cleave off images (which I do) it allows some level of breathable room for the mage who uses Mirror Image.

 

[Nail]

From experience, most mages only use it when they are at risk of ranged attacks (along with Entropy). If they are in melee, usually displacement, blur or blink become the choice spell.

If they're in melee, teleportation spells become first choice, methinks. ...or just moving.

Blur: 20% miss chance. Compare with Mirror Image of up to 89% miss chance at high levels versus 1 attack. Mirror Image wins hands down.....although there's nothing saying you can't combine the two.

Blink: 3rd level spell, so of course it should be better....and yet, Mirror Image means no miss chance for the caster. Mirror Image wins.

Displacement: 3rd level spell, et cetera. Considering how many good 3rd level spells there are......YMMV, but I've only see casters use this spell once, in one game.

At least when you add in not being able to cleave off images (which I do) it allows some level of breathable room for the mage who uses Mirror Image.

Mirror Image, even with a cleave, allows plenty of breating room for a 2nd level spell. Did I mention the high (effective) miss chance? If the mage is using this spell and then standing right next to a high level Ftr with iterative attacks, he deserves what he gets, Mirror Image or not.

Mirror Image eats the actions of your enemies, all the way up to 20th level. If that's not a good 2nd level spell, I don't know what one is.

 

[Dracorat]

At level 3 (when you can cast it, since you are focusing your argument on lower level play generally) you get an average of 3.5 images. Let's call it 4. That's an 80% chance to be missed the first time. (1:5) Now, cleave off the hit and the second attack has a 75% (1:4) chance to miss.

That means the chance to hit you was 20% and 25%.

Now, .8 * .75 = .60 or a 60% chance to be missed. With one fighter attack allowed one cleave only, and only after the first attack. Not too shabby.

But that's for one attack only.

Now, if the images were 3 instead of 4, the math is .75 * .67 = 50% chance to be missed. On the first round.

Now, take it a step further. Blur will last 30 rounds period.

Assuming you get an image popped once per round until you run out of images, then you are hit 100% of the time, but with blur, you are hit 4/5 times for 30 rounds (it's duration) then by probability, mirror image is a poor choice starting in the following rounds:

Round          1              2              3              4              5              6              7              8              9              10             11
4 Miss %       0.6            0.5            0.333333333    0              0              0              0              0              0              0              0
 Hit %         0.4            0.5            0.666666667    1              1              1              1              1              1              1              1
 Mit Dmg       0.4            0.9            1.566666667    2.566666667    3.566666667    4.566666667    5.566666667    6.566666667    7.566666667    8.566666667    9.566666667
                                                                                                                                                                     
3 Miss %       0.5            0.333333333    0              0              0              0              0              0              0              0              0
 Hit %         0.5            0.666666667    1              1              1              1              1              1              1              1              1
 Mit Dmg       0.5            1.166666667    2.166666667    3.166666667    4.166666667    5.166666667    6.166666667    7.166666667    8.166666667    9.166666667    10.16666667


20% evasion    0.8            0.8            0.8            0.8            0.8            0.8            0.8            0.8            0.8            0.8            0.8
 MitDmg        0.8            1.6            2.4            3.2            4              4.8            5.6            6.4            7.2            8              8.8

Blur pays off after 7 rounds for comparison to 4 starting images and 5 rounds when you start with 3 images.

Even though you get more images at higher levels, when you couple in additional strikes for fighters, the stats get worse, not better.

Add a great cleave and mirror image almost never lasts past the first round.

 

[Nail]

At level 3 .....

Good.

At level 3, how many attacks are your typical opponents taking per round?

...But that's for one attack only.

If the mage is taking attacks every round at low level, that's a separate problem.

Now, take it a step further. Blur will last 30 rounds period.

Which is, I'm sure you'll agree, overkill. Low level combats last several rounds, 10 rounds at most.

During those first rounds of combat, which is better: 20% miss or (4 images) 80% miss?

Assuming you get an image popped once per round until you run out of images, ...

Better assumption: You get images popped once in a while, as you move out of harm's way and your party covers for you. In fact, I've seen/read about more images getting "popped" by missile fire.....and you can't cleave from missile fire.

Blur pays off after 7 rounds .....

Sure! And if you commonly have combats lasting that long and you have the hit points to take more hits in the first few rounds, then Blur is the better choice. IOW: "Ya gotta get through rounds 1 to 6 before we start talking about round 7!"

Your mages have lots of hit points?


...anyway, back to the main point: allowing cleave to affect Mirror Image does little to curb this already excellent spell, at any level.

 

[Dracorat]

At level 3, how many attacks are your typical opponents taking per round?
If the mage is taking attacks every round at low level, that's a separate problem.

One, which is all I gave them. This can be 7 attacks, not necessarily 7 rounds. And really, it's any 7 successful attacks. All unsuccessful are no threat to either blur or mirror image. And any mage can get gang-beat in the first round or two of combat here or there. It happens in a mage's adventuring career.

Which is, I'm sure you'll agree, overkill. Low level combats last several rounds, 10 rounds at most.

Oh of course. The point was simply that blur doesn't just go away after 3 rounds or something silly like that. So, we can count it as a permanent effect for sake of comparison.

During those first rounds of combat, which is better: 20% miss or (4 images) 80% miss?

Well, with cleave and 4 images, the chance isn't 80%, it's 60% (.8 * .75). That's basic probability, you take the defect chance (in this case, misses) and multiple them together to get cumulative defect (real chance to miss).

Better assumption: You get images popped once in a while, as you move out of harm's way and your party covers for you. In fact, I've seen/read about more images getting "popped" by missile fire.....and you can't cleve from missile fire.

I'm not arguing missle fire. We don't need this assumption, if nothing it devalues your point, not mine as a ranger can hit a mage from pretty much anywhere on the battlefield, making it easier for the fighter (with his cleaves) to hit on followup turns.

Sure! And if you commonly have combats lasting that long and you have the hit points to take more hits in the first few rounds, then Blur is the better choice. IOW: "Ya gotta get through rounds 1 to 6 before we start talking about round 7!"

Your mages have lots of hit points?

No they don't, but my clerics usually have sufficient healing. The argument here is simply that mirror image isn't the penultimate spell you make it out to be.

Now, you like it, which is cool. But people feeling that making it not cleavable off image pops understand the probability curve a bit more. And it's supportable by RAW (albeit with a debate for sure).

When you cannot cleave off of mirror image, then the round until blur exceeds mirror image moves up to 14 rounds for 4 images and 10 rounds for 3 images. It's that large of a difference.

And that is where I beleive it puts it more 'on scale' with a level 2 spell. Because that scale will drop pretty significantly at the higher levels, but makes it a pretty darn useful spell at the lower ones.