Mirror Image vs. Cleave

[Storyteller01]

A. Let's say I have Great Cleave, and am surrounded by eight goblins. I drop one with an attack, and can Cleave each of the others as long as I don't fail to drop one with each attack roll, right?

B. Does the answer change if I'm blind?

C. Does the answer change if instead of eight goblins, it's eight incorporeal shadows? D. If it's shadows, and I'm blind?

E. Now, if there's a mirror image in the square beside me, and I'm blind, and I attack that square, and make the miss chance for being blind, and strike the mirror image, do I get to Cleave?

F. What if there isn't a mirror image in the square beside me, and I'm blind, and I attack that square, and make the miss chance for being blind? Do I get to Cleave?

If the answers to E and F are different, what creates the difference?

-Hyp.

Depends on your DM.

 

[RigaMortus2]

A. Let's say I have Great Cleave, and am surrounded by eight goblins. I drop one with an attack, and can Cleave each of the others as long as I don't fail to drop one with each attack roll, right?

B. Does the answer change if I'm blind?

C. Does the answer change if instead of eight goblins, it's eight incorporeal shadows? D. If it's shadows, and I'm blind?

E. Now, if there's a mirror image in the square beside me, and I'm blind, and I attack that square, and make the miss chance for being blind, and strike the mirror image, do I get to Cleave?

F. What if there isn't a mirror image in the square beside me, and I'm blind, and I attack that square, and make the miss chance for being blind? Do I get to Cleave?

If the answers to E and F are different, what creates the difference?

-Hyp.

I'd like to answer...

A) Yes
B) No, the answer does not change.
C) By incorporal shadow, you mean a creature, right? Not a normal shadow a person casts. If you mean shadow creature, then NO the answer does not change.
D) No, the answer does not change.
E) I thought that, if you close your eyes against someone w/ Mirror Image, you negate the use of Mirror Image altogether. When you are blind, you select a square and swing into that square. If there happens to be a person in that square, and your attack roll was high enough to hit him, you roll the 50% miss chance to see if you really did hit him. So it counters Mirror Image, because you aren't "selecting a target", you are selecting a square into which you are attacking.
F) Was there a person in that square? If you hit him, and you kill him, you get a Cleave, even if you are blind.

 

[KarinsDad]

Anyway, as to the issue of Mirror Image/Cleave - yep, it works just fine as far as I know, and I have absolutly no problem with that. Mirror Images are just dinky little illusions that poof when you hassle 'em. Against people without Cleave, it's solid gold. Sure it's got one weakness that someone who is properly trained can exploit, but ... it's only a second level spell.

Not according to the rules. According to the rules, the images are figments, not creatures. And according to the rules, Cleave only works on creatures.

Now, according to the FAQ, ...

 

[Sigg]

Where do the rules say Cleave can ONLY be used against creatures? I see the word "creature" in the feat desc but to my mind it's used only as part of an assumption that a creature would be the only thing one would be attacking...which even with the mirror image spell would be true. When I attack a caster using mirror image I'm actually attempting to attack a creature (the caster). Regardless, what I read doesn't actually say that ONLY creatures can be cleaved. Also, one doesn't even really have to kill the target to make an extra cleave attack, but merely drop it. Killing is just the most common way to "drop" a target. What this seems to say to me is that one could even use the Cleave feat with a sap if one were able to drop the target in the first hit.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Where do the rules say Cleave can ONLY be used against creatures? I see the word "creature" in the feat desc but to my mind it's used only as part of an assumption that a creature would be the only thing one would be attacking...

You answered your question yourself. Creature is a defined word in D&D and if you make an assumption about it meaning something other than intendend, you'd be making a mistake. For instance, you specifically cannot cleave from an object, as obviously from the definition, an object is the seeming antithesis of a creature. A mirror image is a magical effect and is also clearly not a "creature". Therefore, you can't cleave from it.

 

[Sigg]

The word "creature" is indeed defined in the glossary, but unless there's a rule somewhere I'm missing that states that words in feat descriptions that are defined imply exclusivity in relation to the feat usage, I'm still not seeing where the Cleave feat can be used only against "creatures". There might very well be exclusivity expressed in some other rule that relates to this case, just saying that if so I can't seem to find it. Regardless of semantics, poor wording, or what-have-you my inclination would be to allow cleave to be used against mirror image as per the FAQs, if for no other reason than kind of the reverse of the reasoning of previous posters. If cleave is allowed against images than yes, it makes wading through the images to get to the caster a touch less tedious, however one would have to have great cleave and great positioning to render mirror image completely useless, and on the flip side if cleave is disallowed then mirror image can be used as a cleave defense rendering the feat temporarily useless. If I were DMing I'd prefer the former myself.

 

[Palskane]

This may be a tangent, but how do light conditions interact with figments, specifically those created by Mirror Image?

In other words, could a PC with a high enough Spot check unerringly pick the real caster of the spell, because he/she has a shadow and the images do not?

On page 173 of the 3.5 PHB it gives an example of a cottage that is a figment not protecting from the rain if you are inside. How does light generally interact with illusions? If you are standing in an illusary cottage, at night with a torch, can those outside of the cottage see the light, whether or not they realize the cottage is an illusion? What if the cottage has windows?

Just curious as to how everyone would rule these things.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The word "creature" is indeed defined in the glossary, but unless there's a rule somewhere I'm missing that states that words in feat descriptions that are defined imply exclusivity in relation to the feat usage, I'm still not seeing where the Cleave feat can be used only against "creatures". There might very well be exclusivity expressed in some other rule that relates to this case, just saying that if so I can't seem to find it.

What? It uses the word "creature" and you just choose to ignore it? I'm not sure how to respond to your comment. When a rule uses a term, that term should be taken at face value. It didn't use object, so you can't cleave from an object. Simple as that.

Regardless of semantics, poor wording, or what-have-you my inclination would be to allow cleave to be used against mirror image as per the FAQs, if for no other reason than kind of the reverse of the reasoning of previous posters.

That's fine, though I'm unclear what is the reverse reasoning.

 

[Infiniti2000]

This may be a tangent, but how do light conditions interact with figments, specifically those created by Mirror Image?

That's totally flavor-based. Describe it however you wish so long as the game effect is not altered by the description. In other words, don't allow someone to pick out the non-image with a spot check because they are looking for the 'shadow'. Maybe they don't have shadows, but the images move around so much that it doesn't matter.

 

[Sigg]

Anyway, as to the issue of Mirror Image/Cleave - yep, it works just fine as far as I know, and I have absolutly no problem with that. Mirror Images are just dinky little illusions that poof when you hassle 'em. Against people without Cleave, it's solid gold. Sure it's got one weakness that someone who is properly trained can exploit, but ... it's only a second level spell.

This is kind of the reverse I was thinking of.....basically that cleave would make mirror image either useless or at least much less effective.

I don't ignore the word "creature", I just don't see where the use of the word "creature" implies exclusivity. It does not, in the feat description, state that the cleave feat can never be used against things other than "creatures". It also doesn't say in the glossary definition of "creature" that the feat Cleave can never be used against anything other than "creatures". It only states in the glossary definition that the word "creature" does not mean "object". It doesn't even say in the glossary that "creature" can't mean "figment"...in fact IMO the definition actually says it does mean figment when it says "or other active being" since a mirror image figment is an animate phenomina meant to exactly "mirror" a "creature" ("creature" being a "character" in this case).