Mirror Image vs Greater Cleave

[Elder-Basilisk]

Some DMs also rule that magic missile doesn't work on images too (it affects creatures not figments or objects). It doesn't make it a reasonable ruling.

Only if you rule that Cleave works on an image. Since Cleave only works on creatures and Images are figments not creatures, some DMs rule that Cleave (and Greater Cleave) do not work at all.

 

[KarinsDad]

Not really. All of the AoO related problems go away for instance because as a single creature with a large face, anything that threatens any part of the creature threatens the whole creature. Similarly, any area affect spell that affects part of the creature affects the whole creature. And, of course, since everything is adjacent to everything else, there's no clever knocking out the line of mirror images by targetting so as to leave them more than five feet from each other.

It seems like a perfectly viable solution to me and the only headache I can see it creating is that you have to have a way to figure out which square the PC is in when the last image is popped.

It has other similar issues.

1) The caster in not in square x, but he is still affected by spells cast into square x.

2) The caster is not in a threatened square, but he can still be AoOed as if he were there.

3) The caster does not take up 4 squares, but he prevents enemy movement as if he did.

 

[KarinsDad]

Some DMs also rule that magic missile doesn't work on images too (it affects creatures not figments or objects). It doesn't make it a reasonable ruling.

Reasonable is in the eye of the beholder. For me, it is totally reasonable. For you, it is not.


Magic Missile only affects creatures. Mirror Image figments are not creatures.

The spell casting targeting rules explicitly disallow it.

Just because the caster of Magic Missile is confused as to whether something is a legitimate target or not does not mean that the Magic Missile spell itself can suddenly "break the laws of magical physics" in the world to alleviate that confusion.


Do you allow Faerie Fire to target an image? Enlarge Person? Hold Person?

What about spells with saving throws? Do figments suddenly acquire the (creature / object only) ability to make saves?

 

[werk]

This is somewhat hard for me to explain, but it goes into my general concept of mirror image, here's how I play it: When a caster casts Mirror Image, duplicate figments pop out and start playing three-card-monte; that is, you can't tell where the original is and it's all a big mess of images passing through one another.

I only allow targeting of the Mirror Imaged caster, as there is no way to tell which is which and the caster is generally the only valid target. But once the spell is cast, it resolves normally under Mirror Image.

So for Magic Missile, all missiles fired at the target either hit the target or a single figment, destroying it.

With cleave, the target was the caster, if you hit an image, it is destroyed, but your target did not 'drop' so no cleave.

This would be the same for faerie fire, enlarge, or hold/charm. The target is the caster, resolve mirror image after the spell is cast to see the effect.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Do you allow Faerie Fire to target an image? Enlarge Person? Hold Person?

What about spells with saving throws? Do figments suddenly acquire the (creature / object only) ability to make saves?

Faerie fire is an area effect spell and, as previously noted, I keep all images in the same square as the caster. So, yeah, it effects all images and the caster. Now, enlarge person or hold person on an image both have the same effect: the image disappears. So, there's no ability to make saves added to the images; targeted spells are simply treated as attacks.

 

[Cabral]

I've been trying to think of how to best describe how I adjudicate Mirror Image. I think the best way is that spell caster becomes a sort of hydra. (same size/reach as normal) The mirror image just gives you a mechanism to avoid damage (so for example, a magic missile targeting you has a chance to affect your duplicates.) If you cast a spell such as enlarge person, it affects the duplicates as well. The cleave and whirlwind mechanics are exceptions as they can effectively affect the same target multiple times (but in this case, the "target" is actually a collection of targets).

The intention is to simplify the spell without reducing it tactical merit, nor diminishing its potential counters.

If my players become advanced enough (They are basicly all casual gamers) that I think they can handle it, I'll use Mirror Image as written. The caster/images may give away which is the real caster, or at least reveal a duplicate, but the move-through-each-other means that informatio is only good for one round.

 

[KarinsDad]

This is somewhat hard for me to explain, but it goes into my general concept of mirror image, here's how I play it: When a caster casts Mirror Image, duplicate figments pop out and start playing three-card-monte; that is, you can't tell where the original is and it's all a big mess of images passing through one another.

I only allow targeting of the Mirror Imaged caster, as there is no way to tell which is which and the caster is generally the only valid target. But once the spell is cast, it resolves normally under Mirror Image.

So for Magic Missile, all missiles fired at the target either hit the target or a single figment, destroying it.

With cleave, the target was the caster, if you hit an image, it is destroyed, but your target did not 'drop' so no cleave.

This would be the same for faerie fire, enlarge, or hold/charm. The target is the caster, resolve mirror image after the spell is cast to see the effect.

This is a very reasonable way to adjudicate it.

It ignores the literal interpretation of "Enemies attempting to attack you or cast spells at you must select from among indistinguishable targets." which implies that the selection of the target includes the images, but it is a way to allow an individual spell to target the caster and still pop an image.

I especially like the concept of there being only one real target there, hence, all Magic Missiles only target one image since you are not targeting an image, you are targeting the caster.

 

[billd91]

This is somewhat hard for me to explain, but it goes into my general concept of mirror image, here's how I play it: When a caster casts Mirror Image, duplicate figments pop out and start playing three-card-monte; that is, you can't tell where the original is and it's all a big mess of images passing through one another.

I only allow targeting of the Mirror Imaged caster, as there is no way to tell which is which and the caster is generally the only valid target. But once the spell is cast, it resolves normally under Mirror Image.

So for Magic Missile, all missiles fired at the target either hit the target or a single figment, destroying it.

With cleave, the target was the caster, if you hit an image, it is destroyed, but your target did not 'drop' so no cleave.

This would be the same for faerie fire, enlarge, or hold/charm. The target is the caster, resolve mirror image after the spell is cast to see the effect.

It is also, pretty much, the easiest way to handle it and the least subject to shenanigans that shouldn't be caused by a measly 2nd level spell.

 

[dkers]

Cleave requires "damage" to a "creature." Images don't have hit points and aren't creatures so it loses on both fronts. In essence, you destroy it by interacting with it.

Though in terms of game balance, I'd have no problem throwing fighters a bone.

 

[lukelightning]

They really need to revise mirror image. The spell is a quaint idea that causes all sorts of problems and even in an ideal situation is problematic. The fact that you make a set number of images that wink out after being attacked is the key problem. A better mechanic would to be something like blur or displacement that gives a flat % miss chance for the duration.