D&D 5E Mislead spell and illusion disbelieve

[zaratan]

it's a 5th lvl concentration spell that if you use you can't attack or cast a spell or even use your action for you if you use for the illusion, I would rule as write, no disbelieve. Even so, truesight can see that is a illusion or any creature that isn't affected by. And any creature that can perceive invisibility can perceive you.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Nobody is having any issues with Mislead? Nobody is even casting Mislead?

My group haven't cast the spell yet... for some reason we all tend to avoid illusion spells other than invisibility and it's greater version (it's probably because I rarely ever get to play, and because all of the others in the group have many years experience with an awful DM from before I met them, who easily could have spoiled illusions for them because that's the kind of thing he would do).

That aside, I'm taking a look at the spell and seeing what I think about it is a DM.

It appears very limited in application, since it's in-combat usage is not much more useful than the invisibility spell because its effect is ended as easily and it only applies to the caster (while a 5th-level slot spent on invisibility would apply to up to 4 total creatures). What the double is capable of also seems unhelpful in combat situations, since you'd presumably need to be hiding somewhere nearby so that you don't give away the trick by making noise or getting bumped into.

In non-combat, or at least pre-combat, application the only benefit to realizing the double is an illusion is knowing that there is some hidden mage somewhere... so I don't see much reason in making it difficult in any way to tell that it is an illusion.

In fact, reading a few more spells, I have reached a conclusion as to how I will handle things until presented with some official clarification otherwise that sounds good to me, or finding that it doesn't actually work out well in practice:

I'll be treating the spell as a lesser version of project image, with all the same means of detection - it simply has a shorter range and duration, while adding the benefit of invisibility to counter the fact that the double appears where you are standing rather than at some distant point from which you are probably already unseen.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

It appears very limited in application, since it's in-combat usage is not much more useful than the invisibility spell because its effect is ended as easily and it only applies to the caster (while a 5th-level slot spent on invisibility would apply to up to 4 total creatures). What the double is capable of also seems unhelpful in combat situations, since you'd presumably need to be hiding somewhere nearby so that you don't give away the trick by making noise or getting bumped into.

In non-combat, or at least pre-combat, application the only benefit to realizing the double is an illusion is knowing that there is some hidden mage somewhere... so I don't see much reason in making it difficult in any way to tell that it is an illusion.

Eh, I've seen it in play. Seems perfectly serviceable to me.

You'd use it to draw an attack or two away in combat; or prod foes to move out of position; or to hide for a couple rounds. Pre-combat you'd use it to flush out enemies hiding in a room; to scout out unknown locations as if it were a fast-moving Arcane Eye with sound, or a mobile Clairvoyance/Clairaudience; to trigger limited-use and alpha strike attacks like breath weapons. Or to try and communicate from a safe distance with a potentially dangerous and hostile creature. Since there is a decent duration and no mention of dissipation when it takes damage or is recognized as false by a creature, it should be usable repeatedly and for several of these functions per casting.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Since there is a decent duration and no mention of dissipation when it takes damage or is recognized as false by a creature, it should be usable repeatedly and for several of these functions per casting.

The reason why I decided on the interpretation I decided to go with is because it is often better than a similar spell of higher level if not as easily realized as an illusion.

 

[77IM]

This came up in my game the other night when a villain cast mislead.

For extra complexity, the villain was a medusa so no-one was looking at him when he cast it; but one of the PCs has tremorsense (from a magic item) and another one has blindsight (from a custom feat; he only has it when his eyes are closed, which they were, because medusa).

I resolved this as follows:

• I described the sound of the illusory double's footsteps; no-one was looking at him, so I didn't need to describe the visual effect. But I told the players with special senses that although they heard the sounds, they did not sense any physical creature there; in fact, they sensed the guy right where he had been when he cast the spell.
• I decided (but didn't tell anyone) that spending an action and making an Intelligence (Investigation) check would reveal the double as insubstantial. Not an illusion; just insubstantial (which is inconsistent with making footstep sounds). Now I realize the spell description doesn't specifically allow for this, but it's a true fact (the illusion really is insubstantial) and there should be some way for the PCs to learn that fact if they study it carefully. As a bonus clue, if anyone had looked at the illusory medusa they would not have risked petrification.

In other words, I described the spell effects as accurately as possible and let the players come to their own conclusions. The Intelligence (Investigation) check merely reveals a very subtle spell effect; it doesn't see right through it.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

The reason why I decided on the interpretation I decided to go with is because it is often better than a similar spell of higher level if not as easily realized as an illusion.

If you're referring to Project Image - the range and duration differences are significant enough. Since Mislead needs to begin where the caster is, the caster potentially runs the risk of counterattack from enemies alerted with the image. Whereas Project Image can be used to explore a dungeon site from the safety of one's home, inn room, sanctum, or private wizard's tower. Furthermore, Project Image can be used to conduct an entire conversation from hundreds of miles away - unlike Mislead; or earlier remote communication spells like Sending.

Mind you, the PHB is also filled with high-level spells that are nonsensically weak - compare Bigby's Hand to Mordenkainen's Sword, for example. Or any other extra attack / moveable DOT spell to Mordenkainen's Sword, really.

 

[jgsugden]

The spell does exactly what it says and nothing more. We don't add rules that are not there. (Of course, a DM can do whatever we want - but we're discussing our best implementation of RAW here, with reasonable interpretation where rules are not specific).

There are few rules on what an illusion is (see PHB 203 for what there is), but they make it clear there are two types: Ones that make fake sensory inputs to all that view (fake visions, smells, sounds, etc...) (which I'll call illusions) and ones that go directly into the mind and create a falsehood within the brain of one enemy (which I call phantasms). This spell seems clearly to be the former.

For illusions, it is generally considered, although not explicitly spelled out in 5E, that they create visions, sounds, smells, and emanated touch sensory impressions (such as emanated heat or a chilling aura), but that they do not have any mechanical impact on observers. They will not obstruct, damage, duplicate a special ability (such as a Medusa's gaze), etc... There are specified exceptions to this rule, such as found in minor image, but this is the general rule most DMs use... which boils down to 'it seems real until you interact with it' (unless the spell specifies otherwise). There is likely to be some disagreement between DMs, but I would rule that tremorsense does not get fooled by illusions (as the ground can't really be vibrated by the illusion), but blindsight is fooled by these sensory illusions (truesight is called out as seeing through it, but not blindsight).

This is the joy and challenge of illusions - figuring out fun ways to use them often require some interesting rulings by the DM.

They're not relevant to mislead, but for completeness sake: phantasms can convince people of far more, but the rules generally spell that out. Phantasmal Killer and Phantasmal Force do a good job there.

There is no check available to see through Mislead. If an enemy tries to use an action to determine whether it is an illusion, there is no mechanic to do so. As such, the enemy won't see it as a faint outline if they make a check. Instead, there will be no effect if they try to investigate and 'see through the illusion'. The result of such an attempt will always be inconclusive as to whether it is an illusion.

... but you don't need a check to believe it to be an illusion. There is no illusion where you must have a check to conclude you're dealing with an illusion. Generally, checks provide confirmation, not suspicion.

Players can draw that conclusion for their characters (and DMs for NPCs) based upon other criteria. For example, if an arrow passes right through it, the enemy might conclude it is an illusion.

However, they're making an assumption when they do so. There is no mechanic from the spell that will confirm their suspicion (although Truesight, etc... could). For all they know, when they see an arrow pass through the spellcaster, there could be a spell in effect that allows arrows to pass through a physical form. And believing it to be an illusion does not change what their senses are telling them. They can't see past the illusion, for example. A clever spellcaster might put their mislead self directly in front of the words that an enemy wants to read and obstruct that view for as long as the illusion is present.

 

[CapnZapp]

Yeah, well, if you need that wall of text, I know I would have preferred a more clear spell description...