D&D 5E (2014) Misty Stepping on my Dragon (critique my ruling)

Just going on practicality, I see no reason why you couldn't Misty Step onto the dragon's back, provided you had a clear enough view to see where you were going. It's the Nightcrawler rule from X-Men, he can't just BAMF to an abstract location, he has to either be familiar with it, have a clear line of sight, or has to be able to calculate it("20 feet straight ahead on the other side of this wall"). After that, I'd do contested rolls on the dragon's turns between the dragon's Athletics and the Paladin's Athletics or Acrobatics to see if he can stay on(you may rule that the conditions become to severe for Acrobatics(balance), that Athletics(strength) becomes required at some point), as the dragon tries to throw the Paladin off. I'm not sure how I'd rule on the wing attacks, though. One could argue that being on top of the dragon would almost be like sitting in the eye of the hurricane, and the Paladin wouldn't be as affected by the force trying to knock him prone. If that's the case, I'd probably grant Advantage on the Dex save, but if he still fails then he falls off the dragon and takes damage accordingly. If I were DM I would probably rule that way, just because I think having the guts to teleport onto the dragon's back is pretty darn cool. :)
 

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This is one of my favorite tactics as a player! I love climbing onto the backs of big creatures. It's nice that the 5e DMG provides actual rules for it, too. My DM feels it's a little too easy to stay on the big creature's back, though, so he quires that I make Dex saves or Dex (Acrobatics) checks whenever he feels it's appropriate to stay on. Fortunately for me, I'm playing a Dex-based paladin, so those rolls are usually quite easy for me.

As an Oath of the Ancients paladin, I also have misty step, and the DM is fine with me using it to teleport above a big creature like a dragon and then hang on.

I think I've only fallen off a big creature once.
 

So these answers are all my opinions... take 'em as you wish.

1.) Should I allow Misty Step onto dragon or other flying creature? It's one thing to fly as a rider with a saddle, it's another to attempt to stand and fight on a dragons back.

I do not allow any teleport effect that requires line of sight to let a PC teleport into an open space that would be followed by falling. This is to prevent PCs from the good ol' "Dimension Door + Push" trick. But I WOULD allow a PC to misty step onto a large creature.... however, I would require the PC to make an attack roll (prof + int modifier?) against a DC of around 15 to 20. A miss would mean you fall.

Rule of cool is great, but there should always be an element of risk involved.

2.) Would you require extra saving throws to balance in that precarious position each round? I think yes, is a DC 17 about right for a dex save? I am considering that if this comes up again, that to this would require a Dex save each round, a fail would mean that attacks are at disadvantage for that round.

I would say that if you hold on with both hands, no save is needed. Holding on with one hand, you can make a save each round to hold on - dex or str, I don't really know how I'd do it. Hold on with no hand, and you make a dexterity save or acrobatics check with disadvantage or you fall. No second save - you were the one who took the chance!

If you hold on with one hand and attack, any weapon that isn't light is made with disadvantage. Time to bust out the ol' hand axe...

3.) Finally, if the dragon uses its Wing Attack (legenday action) and suceeds, the player fails the save and falls prone, is giving him a second chance to hang on too generous? In hindsight I am thinking yes. If it happens again, I would say he either falls or is given a chance to hang on and the next round his attacks are at disadvantage.

Well, I'd say that most likely, the PC isn't affected by the wind attack, being in a safety zone. But if there WERE an effect that would knock the PC prone, I wouldn't allow a second save. Again, let the PC fall. He chose to be there, let him suffer the drawbacks for that action.

Optionally, I'd allow the second save, but the PC grabs onto the dragon's tail or talon or something. He can't attack - he has to spend a round climbing back into a combat position.
 

Wik beat me to the punch. Misty Step shouldn't be auto win button for defeating flying dragons. The character needs to figure out where that dragon's going to be at the moment they are able to cast the spell.

Keep in mind the range of Misty Step is only 30 feet. So, they're probably going to have to use it as a readied action with the trigger being: when the dragon comes within 30 feet.

Plus, the dragon may not even get within range of Misty Step when it attacks. If it's old enough to have a legendary action then it's probably got a breath weapon that can reach farther than 30 feet. If that happens, the paladin wasted their action.

However, if the dragon does swoop down to use it's melee attacks, the paladin definitely has a shot at landing on it's back as long as he makes his 'to hit' roll (as per Wik above) to properly calculate where he should be in relation to the dragon. On the plus side, if he fails, he's only Misty Stepped 30 feet away and can probably survive the fall.
 

So these answers are all my opinions... take 'em as you wish.



I do not allow any teleport effect that requires line of sight to let a PC teleport into an open space that would be followed by falling. This is to prevent PCs from the good ol' "Dimension Door + Push" trick. But I WOULD allow a PC to misty step onto a large creature.... however, I would require the PC to make an attack roll (prof + int modifier?) against a DC of around 15 to 20. A miss would mean you fall.

Rule of cool is great, but there should always be an element of risk involved.



I would say that if you hold on with both hands, no save is needed. Holding on with one hand, you can make a save each round to hold on - dex or str, I don't really know how I'd do it. Hold on with no hand, and you make a dexterity save or acrobatics check with disadvantage or you fall. No second save - you were the one who took the chance!

If you hold on with one hand and attack, any weapon that isn't light is made with disadvantage. Time to bust out the ol' hand axe...



Well, I'd say that most likely, the PC isn't affected by the wind attack, being in a safety zone. But if there WERE an effect that would knock the PC prone, I wouldn't allow a second save. Again, let the PC fall. He chose to be there, let him suffer the drawbacks for that action.

Optionally, I'd allow the second save, but the PC grabs onto the dragon's tail or talon or something. He can't attack - he has to spend a round climbing back into a combat position.

So basically "don't bother"? You've got to make a roll with a stat that's likely to be quite bad in order to not just waste your spell and plummet, followed by another roll with a stat you're good at to not plummet, then you get either attacks with disadvantage OR normal attacks with a weapon that you could have just thrown at the thing in the first place (because it was within 30 feet of you).

I think using the DMG's rules for climbing on a larger creature are just fine: the misty step is a success on the 'get on top of it', followed by holding on. Once you're up there, the creature can spend an action dislodging you, which it probably won't bother with until you start looking really dangerous.

I think that a dragon probably cannot use wing buffet against creatures on it's own back.

I would allow the dragon to make push attacks with it's tail attack. Getting hit and pushed back 5 feet is likely enough distance to knock you off. I might give you a secondary save against the attack, but it would use your reaction and require you to free your hands (ie - drop your weapon) to do.

You would not get a secondary save against the full action dislodge described in the climbing a foe rules.

To me, that's more than enough risk for the tactic.

I anticipate that if you used this tactic in an area where the dragon has maneuverability, it would probably spend a round moving as far into the air as it could before attempting to dislodge you. I hope you or a party member knows feather fall.

However if you survive the initial round, you stand a very good chance of doing some serious damage, getting your full attack routine with advantage.
 

As an interesting similarity, in WoW as part of the Dragon Soul raid, you fight on top of Deathwing's back. Essentially your group has to coordinate their positioning or Deathwing will do a barrel-roll and throw you all off. Honestly if the dragon suddenly found a smite-happy paladin on his back, the best thing he could do is move away from the rest of the party, assuming open spaces, and fly high enough and just keep attempting to dislodge the guy until it worked. Alternatively, the dragon could enter some form of terrain the paladin cannot tolerate, such as water or lava (are red dragons immune to lava?)
 

So basically "don't bother"? You've got to make a roll with a stat that's likely to be quite bad in order to not just waste your spell and plummet, followed by another roll with a stat you're good at to not plummet, then you get either attacks with disadvantage OR normal attacks with a weapon that you could have just thrown at the thing in the first place (because it was within 30 feet of you).

I dunno about that. "Rule of cool" is awesome and all that - but having a 2nd level spell be super useful to defeat a dragon? Not so much. Especially a ruling that allows one PC to quite effectively solo a dragon (which was the original post).

I think using the DMG's rules for climbing on a larger creature are just fine: the misty step is a success on the 'get on top of it', followed by holding on. Once you're up there, the creature can spend an action dislodging you, which it probably won't bother with until you start looking really dangerous.

Sure. But way I see it? If you're on a dragon's back, you should be holding on. You should sacrifice your shield to get up there... and maybe switch to a smaller weapon. It SHOULD be hard. But then, if you're between the thing's wings, you should be safe from many attacks.
 

I dunno about that. "Rule of cool" is awesome and all that - but having a 2nd level spell be super useful to defeat a dragon? Not so much. Especially a ruling that allows one PC to quite effectively solo a dragon (which was the original post).
One character meleeing the dragon to death isn't purely down to misty step. My guess is that if the same player had been playing a ranged character, the same thing would have happened, but without the misty step and with more tedious "I just shoot it again". Fact is, this is 5e, and if a character burns a pile of resources on a dragon that's not way above their CR, the dragon is probably dead pretty quickly.
Sure. But way I see it? If you're on a dragon's back, you should be holding on. You should sacrifice your shield to get up there... and maybe switch to a smaller weapon. It SHOULD be hard. But then, if you're between the thing's wings, you should be safe from many attacks.
My point is that if something is hard and the payoff is zero (or negative), then no one will do it. Spending a spell and making 2 attribute checks should result in a benefit, not result in the same effect as not doing those things and just throwing axes. Having a front liner unable to be attacked and doing reduced damage is a big negative.

Jumping on the dragon's back is something I want my players to do: so I'm going to make it hard and risky, but give a big payoff if you succeed.
 

My point is that if something is hard and the payoff is zero (or negative), then no one will do it. Spending a spell and making 2 attribute checks should result in a benefit, not result in the same effect as not doing those things and just throwing axes. Having a front liner unable to be attacked and doing reduced damage is a big negative.

Jumping on the dragon's back is something I want my players to do: so I'm going to make it hard and risky, but give a big payoff if you succeed.

Sure. And I mostly agree with you. My only disagreement is that when PCs do something awesome, they should check for it. There should be a big chance for failure - especially when you consider that advantage is pretty easy to get, diviner bonuses, bardic inspiration, etc.

If someone wants to do something a bit more unusual, they should earn it. It makes it all worth it.

And if they fail... well, to be honest, the failures are much more likely to be remembered, anyways.
 

I have a feeling this tactic will come up again. In RoT and down the road. Setting the rules straight for this will be a good for future campaigns and encounters with my group. I am most likely over thinking things... :)

What I plan on implementing is the following process that consists of two parts:

1.) Getting to the creature to position oneself. That is first part. (Misty Step is fine, provided the PC can see where he is going.) This could be done by lowering a creature by rope, jumping, etc..

2.) Then opposed ability checks in a Skill Contest to stay in that desired position or hold on, what have you. This means the PC and the creature now occupy the same space. Using the DMG rule from page 271 the Skill Contest would be between the Creature's STR vs PC's STR (Athletics) or DEX (Acrobatics). This would require use of the players ACTION for the round.

That part makes more sense now and is a minor change, but will eat up the PC's ACTION for that round. Thanks to those that referenced the DMG rule on climbing larger creatures.

QUESTIONS:


What to do with a failed Ability Contest roll here? The PC failed to occupy the same space as the dragon in the Contest. What about when the dragons turn comes around to move and the dragon is flying? Technically, the PC would not be occupying the same space therefore he would fall. This is the HIGH risk and HIGH reward part I guess and would make this tactic even more dangerous/heroic.

What about using one weapon or a two handed with shield for attacks while in position? The tough DM would say one handed weapon would not require a DEX check while using a two handed or sword/shield would require a DEX check. Fail would mean attacks at disadvantage for that round. I am thinking to keep the rolling down to a minimum of just skipping this part.

What happens from a Failed Save from Wing Attack? I really like the idea of Using the Wing Attack (Legendary Action) and if the PC fails his DEX Save of falling prone on the dragon. He has the condition of prone. At the beginning of the PC's turn he can chose to attack from prone with disadvantage or "stand" (positioning himself) and have to succeed at another Ability Contest of Creatures STR vs PC's STR (Athletics) or Dex (Acrobatics) to do so. With success he can attack as normal. This will eat up another action of the PC and draw out the combat. Additionally, I like the idea of if the PC is already Prone and suffers another effect of Prone, he would fall.

Dragon Shaking off PC The dragon could use its ACTION to attempt to shake off PC with contested Ability Rolls of STR vs PC's STR(athletics) or DEX (acrobatics). Failure would result in PC potentially falling. I would grant a DEX save to avoid falling, probably in the 16-19 range. If PC succeeded he would be PRONE for the beginning of his next round. My question here, is that dragons are really tough in 5e. Should that contested ability check replace his whole Multi Attack for that round or replace one of its three attacks from its Multiattack? (Bite and two Claw)

Everyone has been great and has given me a lot to think about. Look forward to your replies.
 

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