MM excerpt: phane

[mearls]

An insubstantial (takes 1/2 damage from attacks) creature with 478 hit points, that can hit PCs with rays that cause them to halve their damage, so it's only taking 1/4 normal damage? Nasty!

You know how in pro football, the first time a hot shot young rookie plays a game, someone slams him to the ground and, while he's writhing in pain, yells at him "Welcome to the pros, m**********r!"

Yeah, that's what getting to epic level is like.

 

[Spatula]

Also, how do we know what ability score its attacks key from? Maybe more importantly, does it really matter?

I think the idea is, it doesn't matter. Note that in the customizing monsters article, the displayed templates do not alter ability scores at all, which is a big difference from 3e. Since one of the complexities in altering monsters (and in using buffs) in 3e was the cascading effect of ability score changes (e.g. + to Str means you need to alter attack bonuses, grapple bonus, damage bonuses by different multiples - 1x, 0.5x, 1.5x, skill bonuses, and the odd Str-based DC), they are probably trying to move away from that.

Finally, I really don't understand the inclusion of ability scores and their bonuses. I know the formula for calculating them (3.x bonus +1/2 level, correct?), but they don't seem to factor into the statblock, except for a few skills and perhaps for ability checks when necessary.

That's exactly what they are for - ability checks and untrained skill checks. It's the alternative to providing explicit skill lists for monsters. Some have one or two skills they're really good at, but for most you just use the untrained bonus.

 

[That One Guy]

As far as I know, there's nothing official, but in the D & D Miniatures line, being Insubstantial causes a creature to take half damage from attacks, and being weakened causes a creature to deal half damage.

Thanks!

Thanks, I think it shows that even though the stat-blocks and powers may seem basic and as others put it "less-epic" they only are like that on-paper. It is sorta a reverse of 3e, instead of looking better on paper then in play, it looks better in play then on paper.

I think you're onto something there. I hope it turns out true.

 

[Ingolf]

Meh. Not particularly impressed with that offering, to be quite honest. It's just a bit on the blah side. Id' expect to see some more interesting/powerful powers on a critter that can manipulate time, like re-rolls for itself and maybe its opponents.

 

[LordArchaon]

It was impossible to read every post of the thread, so I'll give you my view even if it may repeat someone else's...

First of all, the artwork rocks. And that wouldn't be so important if not because it characterizes the creature much better than before, allowing DMs to customize it, describe it the way they want, but staying in the theme of such a nightmarish, weird, and suggestive creature.
Then I would like to point you to the tactics section and to the Phane's speed, that the tactics mention. 10 is VERY much. And shifting FOUR squares each time you attack as a standard action with the touch which has range 2, means that the Phane can really make effective "flyby" attacks, even on the ground.
Speaking of its powers, the slow effect of the touch appears to be NOT SAVABLE. You are slowed and you must deal with it. So that's another difficulty when you're actually trying to BEAT this guy. You may not be able to approach it.
Wizening Tempest is also more wicked than it first seems: the stun effect endures AT LEAST one round. And after that the after effect makes you BOTH dazed AND weakened.
Last but not least, as many already said, the ability to shun ongoing effects and to be insubstantial (note that all the other examples of creatures using "insubstantial" couldn't attack while insubstantial...).

I must say that I discovered these details only the second or maybe third time I looked through the stats and the whole page. They are straightforward, the 4e monsters, but only AFTER you understand them thoroughly. And even if it doesn't take much to understand them, ALL the examples I've seen took quite a bit "cpu cycles" to understand them...
The good thing is that once you understand them, it's like when you master a modern videogame... You can do all sort of badass things with them without even thinking!
We just have to get used to some new "joypad buttons" like , , , , , , , and

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

I think the idea is, it doesn't matter. Note that in the customizing monsters article, the displayed templates do not alter ability scores at all, which is a big difference from 3e. Since one of the complexities in altering monsters (and in using buffs) in 3e was the cascading effect of ability score changes (e.g. + to Str means you need to alter attack bonuses, grapple bonus, damage bonuses by different multiples - 1x, 0.5x, 1.5x, skill bonuses, and the odd Str-based DC), they are probably trying to move away from that.

...

That's exactly what they are for - ability checks and untrained skill checks. It's the alternative to providing explicit skill lists for monsters. Some have one or two skills they're really good at, but for most you just use the untrained bonus.

Ok, that's cool. I can understand the design decision. It feels strange to me that ability scores do almost nothing in relation to the rest of the stat block. For instance, I want to call the Phane's abilities Charisma-based, but they're not really. They just do what they do, based on the monster's level, role, etc. I'm going to have to let go of some old habits, but I'm ok with that.

Although I'm still trying to figure out where that extra +1 is coming from.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I'm starting to become very concerned by the low damage numbers I'm seeing. This obviously implies that 1/2 level will not improve damage, so a 20th level Wizard's magic missile will do no more than a 1st level Wizard's, save for the possible +5 from items. So while HP scale dramatically with level, damage really doesn't, and that's a potentially very serious problem. I shudder to think how long it would take players to kill that Phane, not to mention all of its minions. That, and their low damage will simply be laughed at by most characters, who could last dozens of rounds of attacks by these creatures without even using healing surges.

I really hope I'm wrong. But since these are official stat blocks, it's hard to see how the math can lie.

 

[The Little Raven]

IThis obviously implies that 1/2 level will not improve damage, so a 20th level Wizard's magic missile will do no more than a 1st level Wizard's, save for the possible +5 from items.

Unless they scale with level, like some of the abilities from the rogue article (all the at-wills shown scale with level). Since most abilities we've seen have been attached to pregenerated 1st-level characters, assuming that they don't scale because you haven't seen it is a bit premature.

 

[DJCupboard]

I
There is nothing EPIC about the phane. It is not frightening. It is not profound in any way. It is a 26th-level creature cannot affect the wider world in any truly significant way. The only way this 26th-level creature can threaten the kingdom or provoke an apocalypse is by hitting people, one at a time. It is an orc with bigger numbers in its stat block.

Oh, and it makes you look old, for a little while. Ooh, scary.

Go on, this creature was meant to be created as a living weapon in the primeval war between deific entities. It basically defines epic. It's the sort of thing campaigns are built around. But just try to extract from its stat block anything resembling a plot hook. I dare you.

It's just so damn shallow.

I agree that it's stats don't include all the potential coolness, but there's nothing to say that this is what is does to characters, those people with destinies who can be resurrected. Against us lowly normal people, it's wizened ray is permamnent (let's say), and if you don't find and kill it, the newly appointed King has only a few days before he dies of old age at 17.

 

[Spatula]

Ok, that's cool. I can understand the design decision. It feels strange to me that ability scores do almost nothing in relation to the rest of the stat block.

But they do:
Initiative = 23 = 13 (1/2 lvl) + 10 (Dex mod)
Perception = 25 = 13 (1/2 lvl) + 7 (Wis mod) + 5 (trained?)
HP = 478 = ((8 [controller] * (26+1 [level+1])) + 23 [Con score]) * 2 [elite]

And I'm not sure what exactly is going into the phane's defenses, but its AC/Ref is 3 over its Fort/Will, and its Dex mod is 3 over its Str/Wis mods, so those are all being used. The attack/damage numbers are admittedly a bit strange; it seems to use Dex for Temporal Touch and Wizening Tempest damage, and Int for Wizening Ray, but all three powers have the same attack bonus.

Mess with the base stats (via templates or whatever), and you have to recalculate all sorts of stuff. Much easier to just add on some bonuses, as in the first customization path.