MM excerpt: phane

[ThirdWizard]

To those that want a complicated monster, you can have the 3E Phane. I just can't imagine said people actually being DMs given what tended to happen with "complex" monsters.

Seriously, to the people decrying the simpler monsters, have you EVER actually DM one of the more statblock heavy creatures at hgih levels?

Thank you! Everything you've said matches my experiences perfectly. These high end monsters look neat on paper, but I can't imagine that most people complaining about how the 3e Phane was better than its 4e counterpart ever ran these kinds of encounters. Yes, those high end 3e monsters are fun to read, but I need more than that. I need monsters that are fun to use!

 

[Voss]

Thank you! Everything you've said matches my experiences perfectly. These high end monsters look neat on paper, but I can't imagine that most people complaining about how the 3e Phane was better than its 4e counterpart ever ran these kinds of encounters. Yes, those high end 3e monsters are fun to read, but I need more than that. I need monsters that are fun to use!

Hmm. I agree with you, but this monster doesn't look fun to use. It just zaps you as you grind away its giant stack of hit points.

Its my biggest problem with the design of the solo and elite monsters- a pile of extra hit points and some defense bonuses doesn't make the encounter more fun. It just drags it out to 'and I hit it again' territory. That gets boring.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I'm with some of the other posters here - - to me this seems like the bad side effect of the 'no save or die effects' philosophy.

Yes, it absolutely stinks to lose levels, or ability points, or die outright, or AGE...but I think that you kick a lot of the dramatic tension right out the window when you do things like this.

Battles in 4e are more about tactics than shock tactics or surprise. It is a battle of attrition and trading blows.

In 3e, a really powerful monster would attack and possible reduce a party member from full hitpoints to dead in one round either because of a save or die spell or because it can do that much damage. And they have to because 4-6 PCs all attacking it at the same time meant there was no way it was going to survive more than a round.

In 4e, a really powerful monster kills you in 4 rounds but you know there's nothing you can do about it unless you all work together and combine your powers to slow it down or stop it before then. It then becomes more of a race against time. More of a slow building tension.

So, when you are fighting a powerful creature like a dragon, it goes like this:
-The dragon breath weapons and everyone takes damage and ongoing damage.
-It spends an action point and charges someone, attacking them twice.
-The PCs now don't know what will happen. They are all taking damage every round that may or may not go away depending on the luck of their saves.

Everyone in the group knows that they have enough hitpoints to survive 3-4 rounds of just the continuing damage from the breath weapon, and it might go away after 1 round. However, what happens if the dragon's breath weapon recharges and he can do it again? What happens if the dragon hit the character most hurt by the breath weapon 2 rounds in a row?

It instead shift to "long term planning". Moving in one round in order to set up the right AOE for your next attack, using an attack to weaken the monster so as to be able to survive more easily for the next couple of rounds, and so on.

 

[MerricB]

"Look out, Egaddz! It's a Phane!!! If he manages to strike any of us with his epic dread power, we will be briefly penalized! And what is more, we will APPEAR TO BE OLD...until it wears off"

Or it's permanent if you die.

The abilities it has are fairly scary, especially when you consider there'll be another couple of monsters also attacking you. A Phane with a sneak attacker? Eep.

Phane - attacks with Wizening Ray. You're Dazed (no Opportunity attacks, every enemy has Combat Advantage against you) and Weakened (half damage on attacks). You make your save? You're *still* weakened, until another round.

A Bloodied Phane? Eep. Wizening Tempest - you're stunned (no actions). Make your first save, and then you're Dazed and Weakened.

Those clerics and warlords are going to be busy allowing you to make extra saves...

Cheers!

 

[ThirdWizard]

Hmm. I agree with you, but this monster doesn't look fun to use. It just zaps you as you grind away its giant stack of hit points.

We'll have to see the capabilities of Epic tier PCs. For example, I'd lay good odds they would have some way of overcoming the Insubstantial resistance it has. Also, its weakening you while its friends flank, pound, and do whatever else abilities they can to you.

 

[Li Shenron]

Interesting special abilities...

But isn't it a bit of a weird choice of monster? I think there were more cool abominations available, like the Hecantoncheires.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The problem with summoning mirror shades to fight the party is that the prep work required for that is substantial. It's just too long.

Not really. Even the original mechanic was: "What's your attack bonus, -2? That's this guy's attack bonus."

The time duplicates were one of the easier parts about the original phane (which I agree, was far too complex to be really useful). They could be added to this phane with a bare minimum of work -- you could add something to the "sample encounter" set that gives it this ability.

Phane - attacks with Wizening Ray. You're Dazed (no Opportunity attacks, every enemy has Combat Advantage against you) and Weakened (half damage on attacks). You make your save? You're *still* weakened, until another round.

A Bloodied Phane? Eep. Wizening Tempest - you're stunned (no actions). Make your first save, and then you're Dazed and Weakened.

It really sounds more annoying than epic. And it still needs an ability that isn't "damage + status ailment." And the cosmetic effect of being old needs to have a bit more staying power -- it's pretty weak sauce right now.

Really, the dude here is probably a pretty awful menace to fight, but it's not really unique to me, it's not distinct in any way. It's fluff is par, but its abilities are just rather uninteresting, however powerful they may be. Stealing time, a parallel time duplicate, the ability to kill people with old age...these were nifty abilities the old phane had, and I'm kind of surprised they didn't find their way into the new phane in some way, since they are evocative coolness.

 

[AllisterH]

Hmm. I agree with you, but this monster doesn't look fun to use. It just zaps you as you grind away its giant stack of hit points.

Its my biggest problem with the design of the solo and elite monsters- a pile of extra hit points and some defense bonuses doesn't make the encounter more fun. It just drags it out to 'and I hit it again' territory. That gets boring.

For Solos, I think we've only seen one so far, namely the Black Dragon from DDXP and that gets not only 2 action points but also Immediate Reactions. I think Solos will play definitely different from normal monsters due to those two points.

Elites are more like sub-bosses I guess to use a videogame term. Not really intended to be epic battles but just stronger than average (the addition of the action point).

That said, there was a playtest by a WOTC designer where they mention that using too high a monster can lead to the exact problem you outlines (I think it was the Angel of Valor) but my impression is that the WOTC designers have designed monsters to have enough interesting actions every round for the length of a fight. For example, you mentioned the worry about battles dragging out but given that in 3E, most battles only lasted one round outside of the sweet spot, that should indicate those were abnormalities. I think they (WOTC) have an idea of what constitues a good battle length.

From playing the low level Raiders of Oakhurst adventure and from seeing the lowered damage of the high end monsters, I get the impression that battles in 4E are more about TACTICS than pre-battle STRATEGY. In 3E, the hour BEFORE a battle was really the determining factor especially at low and high levels where it all came down to rocket tag.

It seems like in 4E, they're focusing on the actual in-battle situation. For example, the use of recharge AND action points AND saving throws AND the lack of major pre-battle buffs means that the actual outcome of a battle will be determined IN battle as well. I don't think 4E will have that planning strategy that 3E had once you past te sweet spot (level 12 IMO).

Battles I think will be a multi round affair where everyone gets to do their stuff and feels like they actually made a contribution to the actual battle itself.

 

[AllisterH]

Really, the dude here is probably a pretty awful menace to fight, but it's not really unique to me, it's not distinct in any way. It's fluff is par, but its abilities are just rather uninteresting, however powerful they may be. Stealing time, a parallel time duplicate, the ability to kill people with old age...these were nifty abilities the old phane had, and I'm kind of surprised they didn't find their way into the new phane in some way, since they are evocative coolness.

*GRINS*

You know, I had the exact same reaction as you did when I read about the phane in the ELH. My favourite villains from comics is Kang and I always thought the Time Gem was the "best" of the Infinity Gems.

So you know, this was the first beastie I thought I would spring at the PCs.

Make no mistake about it, it is DAMN COOL to read. However, to RUN in an actual GAME?

NEVER AGAIN. A total letdown. IT was either "PCs are prepared : Round 1, monster is dead" OR "PCs aren't prepared: Prepare for TPK"

Take something as simple as "negative levels" for the duplicate. Want to try and figure out the lost spell levels of a high level spellcaster or psionic?

Or how about the aging thing? So you got to keep track of how many rounds this effect occurs (which will never happen given the lethality of high level combat) THEN if you hit an age category the affected PC has to recalculate EVERYTHING since its the base stat. Ironically enough, even though 4E gets the "It's like WoW", the fact is a computer can much more easily handle many of the 3E high level monsters.

That's the thing about 3.x that I grew to hate. Everything was balanced so that players and DMs are on an equal footing but the truth is, as a DM I got way more things on my plate to handle.

 

[Samhaine]

Not really. Even the original mechanic was: "What's your attack bonus, -2? That's this guy's attack bonus."

"Oh... you have three 9th level spells prepared, one of which is Time Stop? Okay, he dumps the other two because of the negative levels and casts Time Stop. What are your best remaining high levels spells that can be cast during Time Stop? What do they do?"

I've never been a big fan of exact PC duplicate monsters in general, but at epic level play I expect it would be really complex. Add to that the whole factor of, "all that work you did to make your character competent? Suffer for it!" and it seems like a monster ability that's no fun for the DM or the PCs affected.