D&D 5E MM: How many high levels monsters have some form of magic resistance?

[Leatherhead]

Telling Mary the wizard to go fool the kobolds with parlor tricks while the big boys get to fight the dragon with their swords is hardly a consolation.

 

[Authweight]

I didn't ignore it - I specifically included it in the quote.

But, and this is a big but, fighters can get magic items that let them do tonnes of stuff outside of just hitting things. Always have, always will.

I think my point stands. Better if both classes can be effective at both situations.

I think there's two ways you can go about this. You can either take away most of the wizard's cool toys and say that magic is very limited outside of combat, or is mostly accessible to anyone who wants to do it regardless of class (this is how 4e handled it), or you can make the wizard worse at straight up combat than the fighter. You can't have it both ways - if magic can do cool stuff out of combat that martial characters just can't do, then martial characters need to be better at fighting to compensate.

The other option is to give martial characters abilities that match what spells can do. 4e tried this a little bit, but never really got that far with it. If rogues were so good at hiding they became literally invisible, fighters could jump so high they could basically fly, etc., then magic and martial would be on an even enough playing field. Nobody's really considering doing it this way, though, so we need to work with what we have.

Magical characters can't have the best options for every situation. They have to be bad at something to make up for being good at other things.

 

[Dausuul]

I didn't ignore it - I specifically included it in the quote.

But, and this is a big but, fighters can get magic items that let them do tonnes of stuff outside of just hitting things. Always have, always will.

I have never in my entire life seen a fighter whose magic items put him or her anywhere close to the non-combat versatility of a wizard at the same level. First, about half the magic items on the list are combat gear. (While the same is true of the wizard's spell list, the wizard gets to pick and choose. Magic items are at the whim of the dice and the DM.) Second, when dividing up the loot, the fighter usually ends up with the weapons and armor. And third, very few magic items provide noncombat capabilities remotely comparable to what the wizard can do with a mid-level spell, let alone a high-level one. At best, the fighter might carry a potion of flying or two--which will probably end up being used in combat to equalize the odds against a dragon or something.

A well-equipped fighter with plenty of magic gear, or even just a clever one with decent skills, can certainly contribute to some extent outside of combat--just like the wizard can contribute significantly in a support role when facing a dragon. But the fighter is never going to touch the wizard's versatility and power in noncombat scenarios, just as the wizard is not going to match the fighter's damage output against a legendary foe.

 

[mcintma]

I think there's two ways you can go about this. You can either take away most of the wizard's cool toys and say that magic is very limited outside of combat, or ...

Making the fighter fly and watching the fight from cover while Concentrating, making the rogue invisible, or teleporting the *party* into combat? Utility spells usually benefit the party IME, meaning the 'toys' are played with by all.

Limited spell slots means a Wizard can, for ex., dominate the Exploration pillar briefly if he luckily knows + prepped the right spell (Alter self to Swim, Spider Climb a cliff ...) but that will not last and the Fighter's or Rogue's Athletics/Str will be what is leaned on throughout the day.

My point is it's not as simple as you imply. If casters had infinite spells vs. martials infinite swings + skill-uses, then sure you could hand them a pillar to dominate all day the same way the martial dominates combat all day (setting aside that combat is usually by far the more important pillar in-game). Casters also have the lowest HP and are always closer to death.

To be clear, I'm only concerned about casters at mid-hi level, I think they are very fairly balanced until then.

 

[Dausuul]

Making the fighter fly and watching the fight from cover while Concentrating, making the rogue invisible, or teleporting the *party* into combat? Utility spells usually benefit the party IME, meaning the 'toys' are played with by all.

Limited spell slots means a Wizard can, for ex., dominate the Exploration pillar briefly if he luckily knows + prepped the right spell (Alter self to Swim, Spider Climb a cliff ...) but that will not last and the Fighter's or Rogue's Athletics/Str will be what is leaned on throughout the day.

My point is it's not as simple as you imply. If casters had infinite spells vs. martials infinite swings + skill-uses, then sure you could hand them a pillar to dominate all day the same way the martial dominates combat all day (setting aside that combat is usually by far the more important pillar in-game). Casters also have the lowest HP and are always closer to death.

To be clear, I'm only concerned about casters at mid-hi level, I think they are very fairly balanced until then.

I play a 13th-level wizard. Believe me, we ain't underpowered.

 

[mcintma]

I play a 13th-level wizard. Believe me, we ain't underpowered.

I'm hearing both what you say and also the opposite (HL casters are relegated to buffing martials or minion-slaying), so I'm watching closely. There's only a relative trickle of actual HL play reports right now ... and I believe this aspect was the least tested in the Playtest.

 

[dwayne]

Magic resistance gives advantage vs spells and resistance you take half damage vs what ever type you are resistant to, this is not as good as the old magic resistance which if you mage it nothing happened as it is even if you make it here you could still be partly effected by some spells and the resistance you only take half damage from a type so say that 50 becomes 25 save for half is 12 round down you still hit regardless. In this edition they made a high level wizard able to be more not less effective as I remember not having a single spell effect any thing at highest level at lest here I can in some way be effective for the group. And I think that's what some are missing at this point you are not trying to our due each other you are a team if you are not taking out those small guys or supporting the everyone with protection or buffing the whole group suffers. You could hit the big guy with meteor swarm and do a small bit of damage but that is not what its about. Its about the working together as a team to take out the bad guy other than oh well the wizard will just finger of death him and kill him as the fighter rushes forward and feels useless. This is the first time that a high level fighter feels like a threat to a powerful creature and is a viable target because he can stand and take it as well as dish it out.

 

[mcintma]

This is the first time that a high level fighter feels like a threat to a powerful creature and is a viable target because he can stand and take it as well as dish it out.

It's not just MR. It's MR+Save+ Energy/Condition Res/IMMUNE + Legendary auto-save + Evasion + Magic Immunity and all the other reasons a spell might not work (allies or treasure in area, concentration, etc.)

Ironically, the caster is probably still the best target for the BBEG because 1) he's Concentrating on the martial's Stoneskin and 2) He has low HP and can be killed rapidly, unlike the martial

 

[KidSnide]

My experience with legendary resistance is that it can be frustrating if you are a mid/high-level spellcaster and you're the only one in the party casting spells where saving throws come into play. The monster will frequently make saves on their own and use legendary resistance to convert any failures into successes. If you cast a spell every round, the fight will be over before any spell takes effect.

On the other hand, if the party takes a strategic effort to blast the target with a large number of spells, then working your way through the legendary resistance with your "debilitating enough" mid-level spells can feel like progress. Sure, you won't land a save-or-suck spell in the first couple rounds of combat, but chances are, you'll be able to have a significant impact before the fight is over. My PCs (battlemaster fighter, paladin, storm sorcerer, bard/wizard, "psion-style" reskinned-wizard) can blow through legendary resistance pretty quickly when they focus fire.

But if your PCs are finding legendary resistance frustrating, I recommend a house rule I used during the playtest for a "9 PCs vs. Legendary Dragon" encounter. That dragon had a legendary resistance type ability that allowed it to negate failed saving throws, but doing so required expending a legendary action. That way, even when a PC failing to get a spell to land, the PC was at least using up an action that could have given the dragon an extra claw attack.

Another observation from that fight was that after the failed "save-or-suck" spells used up a use or two of legendary resistance, they produced the additional effect of causing the dragon to accept failed saving throws from low level spells because it wanted to reserve its last use or two of legendary resistance for more serious magic.

-KS

 

[Dausuul]

I'm hearing both what you say and also the opposite (HL casters are relegated to buffing martials or minion-slaying), so I'm watching closely. There's only a relative trickle of actual HL play reports right now ... and I believe this aspect was the least tested in the Playtest.

Well, to be fair, it's probably rather campaign-dependent. One of the changes in 5E relative to 4E was that the 5E designers decided it was acceptable to have classes specialized in different "pillars"--if you're good at exploration and social encounters, it's okay if you're not as strong in combat. That will naturally have disparate impact on different campaigns.

In the campaign I play in, non-combat activity makes up a big chunk. There's a lot of social stuff, intrigue, and so forth, which us spellcasters really shine at. I recently used contact other plane and some carefully worded questions to cut a deal with a god... a painful deal with an evil god, which will probably lead to my character's demise down the road, but still not an opportunity the barbarian is likely to get without the DM basically handing it to her. Illusion magic is my bread and butter, and I'm as likely to use fireball for arson as for killing enemies. Ironically, that same non-combat focus has made it very hard for me to use my wizard specialty of necromancy. I keep trying to animate skeletons and zombies, and then having to leave them behind because people get so upset when you show up with a bunch of undead in tow. I'm hoping that picking up the seeming spell will make my life easier on that front.

(For the record, my alignment is absolutely not Chaotic Evil, the deal with the god did not involve my soul in any way, and I'm shocked that you would suggest such things. Also, when I say "undead" I mean fluffy bunnies. Don't poke the bunnies.)

When combat does break out, I have quite a few options. Direct attacks like fireball are ideal for clearing out minions and creating hazardous terrain in the process (wooden buildings and I do not get along), while save-or-lose debuffs are good for taking care of stronger foes. Remember, most enemies are not legendary, and a save DC of 18 is nothing to sneeze at, particularly if I target the enemy's weak saves. Then there's battlefield control and illusion shenanigans. Every time we come up against an enemy spellcaster, counterspell makes my DM a sad panda. And, yes, I do often buff and teleport the martial PCs; I regard this as a perfectly good use of my time and spell slots. The barbarian is a scary, scary force in melee, but all that melee power does no good against an enemy blasting us from on top of a cliff. If I dimension door the barbarian to the cliff-top, the resulting carnage is every bit as much my doing as hers. It wouldn't have happened without me.

However, if we were playing dungeon crawls dominated by straight-up brawls against big monsters, I can imagine I might feel a bit in the shade.