Mmmm...Libris Mortis.

[jasamcarl]

The difference is a Theurge only goes for 10 levels. That means that by 20th level, the character has only 10 double-caster progressions, and 10 singlecaster progressions.

A True Nec works out exactly the same because it's a 14 level PrC... 10 single caster progressions and 10 double caster progressions, plus powerful class abilities at every level.

If Mystic Theurge continued for 14 levels, you'd have a point... then, at 20th level, the Theurge would be a 17/17 caster, while the True Nec only a 15/15 caster. Do you allow characters to keep advancing past 10th level as a Theurge as a house rule?

I'd have to see the class, but if the TN can't go past 15/15 split, and only gets a few 9th level spell-like abilities at high levels, then it doesn't sound overpowered at all. Using cumulative spell levels is not a good way to assess power, because it doesn't take account of time. If both a 9th level and fifth level spell cast in a standard action, the 9 spell levels are worth more than the 10 spell levels from two 5th levels because it only took one round to cast the former as oppossed to two. And given the short front loaded nature of most 3.x combats, you might very well not get to cast that second fifth level in any case.

 

[Samurai]

A 20th level Wizard has a total of 180 spell levels worth of spells, not counting bonus spells for ability scores. That includes 4 8th lvl and 4 9th lvl.

A 20th lvl Mystic Theurge with a 15/15 split has 242 spell levels including 3 8th lvl and no 9th lvl spells. A 17/13 split favoring Wizard gets him 235 total spell levels, but that includes 2 8th lvl spells and 1 9th lv.

A 20th lvl TrNec has 300 spell levels worth of spells (including 6 8th lvl spells and 2 9th lvl, more than double what a Mystic Theurge gets...) when you count his free spells per day, plus much better turning, +4 caster lvl with Necro spells, etc.

 

[Mouseferatu]

A 20th level Wizard has a total of 180 spell levels worth of spells, not counting bonus spells for ability scores. That includes 4 8th lvl and 4 9th lvl.

A 20th lvl Mystic Theurge with a 15/15 split has 242 spell levels including 3 8th lvl and no 9th lvl spells. A 17/13 split favoring Wizard gets him 235 total spell levels, but that includes 2 8th lvl spells and 1 9th lv.

A 20th lvl TrNec has 300 spell levels worth of spells (including 2 9th lvl and 6 8th lvl spells) when you count his free spells per day, plus much better turning, +4 caster lvl with Necro spells, etc.

But total levels-worth of spells is not a good determination of power, certainly not when viewed in a vaccuum. It doesn't take into account the fact that those spells are weaker, that they're lower level, and that having more spells per day is only an issue if/when the single-class casters run out. (And even then, the TN will likely have blown through most of his more effective spells by the time that happens.)

 

[Samurai]

But total levels-worth of spells is not a good determination of power, certainly not when viewed in a vaccuum. It doesn't take into account the fact that those spells are weaker, that they're lower level, and that having more spells per day is only an issue if/when the single-class casters run out. (And even then, the TN will likely have blown through most of his more effective spells by the time that happens.)

That's why I included the number of "high level" (8th and 9th lvl spells) per day as well... 4/4 for a vanilla Wizard, either 3/0 or 2/1 for a Theurge, and 6/2 for a TrNec. And for Necromantic spells, the TrNec's caster level nearly matches that of a vanilla caster, 19 vs 20.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

I'm wondering what the Atropal Scion is, I figure it's some kind of spawn of the Atropal from the Epic Level Handboook.

You would be correct; yes, it's a leftover from a dead, er, destroyed Atropal. It's quite cool, being an Atropal cut down to size so a non-epic party won't get ripped into pieces automatically.

Amusing tidbits for those who've gone through or read Return to the Tomb of Horrors are the Bleakborn (aka "Moilian Zombie") and the Dream Vestige (aka "The Vestige"). There are one or two quotes from the Bleak Academy, but that's not described in the list of sample locations.

Brad

 

[Mouseferatu]

A 20th level Wizard has a total of 180 spell levels worth of spells, not counting bonus spells for ability scores. That includes 4 8th lvl and 4 9th lvl.

A 20th lvl Mystic Theurge with a 15/15 split has 242 spell levels including 3 8th lvl and no 9th lvl spells. A 17/13 split favoring Wizard gets him 235 total spell levels, but that includes 2 8th lvl spells and 1 9th lv.

A 20th lvl TrNec has 300 spell levels worth of spells (including 6 8th lvl spells and 2 9th lvl, more than double what a Mystic Theurge gets...) when you count his free spells per day, plus much better turning, +4 caster lvl with Necro spells, etc.

But again, numbers don't tell the whole story. As I keep saying, every one of those spells is weaker (except the necromantic ones). He's got fewer of any given higher level spells from each category. His save DCs are likely weaker.

And at this point, we're talking in circles, so why don't we agree that we've got different view of the class until/unless people start showing up with actual numerical and playtested evidence, and let these other poor folks get back to discussing the book?

 

[Psion]

But total levels-worth of spells is not a good determination of power, certainly not when viewed in a vaccuum. It doesn't take into account the fact that those spells are weaker,

It doesn't? You add up the spell levels. They are already weighted. You could make the argument that the weighting isn't proportional, but you can't say that by counting the levels you aren't counting the levels...

that they're lower level, and that having more spells per day is only an issue if/when the single-class casters run out. (And even then, the TN will likely have blown through most of his more effective spells by the time that happens.)

That depends highly on campaign style. It's not just about running out of slots/endurance. It's about always having the right tool for the job. A MT is the ultimate Swiss army knife. If you only ever face you players with one sort of challenge, then it's not a big advantage. Otherwise, it's a pretty big advantage.

For my gaming style, I find the breadth that the MT gets at high level to be pretty telling, but the idea of exchanging a few anvancement level for a few more specialized powers is just what the doctor ordered -- as is the case in Green Ronin's lifeweaver and my Charnel Lord.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

There are several other death gods similarly detailed, including Nerull the Reaper and Doresain, King of the Ghouls.

This name I'm having a vague memory of. Isn't this the main bad guy at the end of the old Dungeon magazine adventure "Kingdom of Ghouls", by Wolfgang Baur? Oh wait, lemme look, I have the issue of Dungeon nearby.

It IS! Very cool!

Anyone able to give some details on Doresain? Does he still have a tenuous link to Nerull, the Orb of Shadows, and the Negative Material Plane?

Anything about the kingdom of ghouls he established, the White Kingdom, being a competative power to Erelhei-Cinlu, the Vault of the Drow?


Very interesting, I'll get Libris Mortis JUST FOR DORESAIN!

Kingdom of Ghouls remains my top Dungeon adventure.


Regards,
Eric Anondson

 

[Mouseferatu]

It doesn't? You add up the spell levels. They are already weighted. You could make the argument that the weighting isn't proportional, but you can't say that by counting the levels you aren't counting the levels...

Sure I can. A cone of cold cast by a 15th-level Mystic Theurge or True Necromancer is weaker than a cone of cold cast by a straight wizard of the same level, because the MT/TN's caster level for wizard spells is lower. That has no bearing whatsoever on total number of spell levels, and isn't measured by any such rubric.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the TN/MT are appropriate for all styles of play. As you and I have discussed before (in reference to psion vs. sorcerer, I believe), play style has a major impact on whether something is balanced. When you get right down to it, every one of these "balance" discussions is a moot point, unless you're working from a common campaign, or something is so blatantly out of whack (like the Radiant Servant of Pelor) that it just leaps off the page.

Balance, frankly, is a common myth that we all (or most of us, anyway) agree to subscribe to. My belief is that, in most campaigns, the MT and TN are both balanced, because my experience shows that trading the upper level of your potential power for a greater variety of lower-level stuff is a fair trade (within reason). But that's obviously based on my experience of campaigns. Yours (also obviously) differs.

As far as the "Swiss army knife" aspect, you're right--but again, that brings us back to versatility vs. power. Frankly, the bard is one of the single-most versatile core classes, and is in fact touted as a good fifth party member because he can take on the rolls of any of the main four, but not as well. But I've never heard anyone complain the bard is unbalanced, unless they were complaining it's too weak. It's the same thing here. Sometimes the party wants power. Sometimes they want variety. Sometimes one wins out, sometimes the other. I don't think being the Swiss army knife is an inherently unbalancing advantage, when balanced with loss of power. Sure, they can deal with more types of situations, but they won't deal with any given situation as effectively.

 

[Nightfall]

Dum-de-dal...ORCUS!

Must have more stuff from Liber Mortis that involves Orcus!!!