Modern Appendix N

I didn't see them mentioned previously unless I missed them, but are Weiss & Hickman just too obvious to be included?

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I consider The Deathgate Cycle to be one of the best series I've ever read. And I think their RPG influences (both by and for) go almost without saying. I have a friend who absolutely won't shut up about Chronicles of the Lance sometimes.
 

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Modern or not, the list really needs to retain "Conan", "Elric", "Lankhmar", "Cthulhu" and "Lord of the Rings".
Doesn't that go against the very idea of the thread? I like them, too, but if we're looking for a modern day set of fantasy influences, I'm not sure stories 70 years old, and older, really qualify.
 

I didn't see them mentioned previously unless I missed them, but are Weiss & Hickman just too obvious to be included?

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I consider The Deathgate Cycle to be one of the best series I've ever read. And I think their RPG influences (both by and for) go almost without saying. I have a friend who absolutely won't shut up about Chronicles of the Lance sometimes.
I hate to be That Guy, but honestly, I think that says more about your friend's breadth of reading than the quality of Weis and Hickman's work. As nice as they might be as people, it's hard to say they measure up to Martin or Gaiman.
 

I hate to be That Guy, but honestly, I think that says more about your friend's breadth of reading than the quality of Weis and Hickman's work. As nice as they might be as people, it's hard to say they measure up to Martin or Gaiman.
Well I can't speak for the Chronicles books since I've never read them, but I stand by Deathgate Cycle. I reread them about 5 years ago and they were just as good as I remembered them being in high school.

Also, from one lawn gnome to another, nice avatar. ;)
 

Doesn't that go against the very idea of the thread? I like them, too, but if we're looking for a modern day set of fantasy influences, I'm not sure stories 70 years old, and older, really qualify.

The problem with some of that though, is if we look at modern day we're essentially ignoring the giants in the room.

I can't be the only person who has seen people without any background in fantasy act and assume that all that is now is all that was and that the lack of well, effort on those readers parts causes them to look around at older material as if that older material were the 'hack jobs and owes modern writing its very existance as opposed to the other way around.

Without knowing where fantasy has come from, its hard to move forward, in an actual forward sense, without going back over all the ground that hey, was already done, we just haven't bothered to read it yet.

But maybe I'm crazy and Warhammer did rip off World of Warcraft and Elric is a cheap copy of Drizzt and Norse mythology has a lot of nerve stealing Tyr and other gods from the Forgotten Realms.
 

I can't be the only person who has seen people without any background in fantasy act and assume that all that is now is all that was and that the lack of well, effort on those readers parts causes them to look around at older material as if that older material were the 'hack jobs and owes modern writing its very existance as opposed to the other way around.

Without knowing where fantasy has come from, its hard to move forward, in an actual forward sense, without going back over all the ground that hey, was already done, we just haven't bothered to read it yet.
That's a fair complaint, but we already have Appendix N to show the Philistines* their roots. We could think of this project as updating Appendix N, if we think that would be fairer to those authors. At any rate, there's something to be said for highlighting what has been influential and important since Appendix N was compiled.

*I'm one of those Philistines, btw. Wouldn't know Vance from de Camp. I'm working on it, but I have to finish reading Dune first</rollseyes>.
 

Doesn't that go against the very idea of the thread? I like them, too, but if we're looking for a modern day set of fantasy influences, I'm not sure stories 70 years old, and older, really qualify.

That would depend on the intention of the thread. If we're merely updating Appendix N, then I believe those books should be included. If, however, we're asking which modern books should be added to Appendix N, then I would agree they would be excluded.

I assumed the former, as the OP asked: My question is two fold, what would a modern day Appendix N contain and how would it influence DnD today?
 

I agree that a modern appendix N should include the classics, Lieber to Howard to Burroughs to Tolkien to Lovecraft et al.

I hold Lynch's Lies of Locke Lamora in high regard but he pulled a Matrix with the second book. Martin is a must, WoT also (grudgingly), Gaiman and Mieville for flavor if not politics.

One thing I haven't seen yet is manga. It should be there. It's hugely influential, it's modern, it's fantasy. Full Metal Alchemist would be the first one I'd put in a modern Appendix N, I think.

Also, a modern appendix N should include movies, CRPGs, and TV, imo.
 

What elements of these novels would you use to craft a system?

That's a tricky one, especially since I'd be inclined to draw inspiration from sources other than just novels. But I'll give it a go...

By and large, I'm generally of the view that the game is stronger if, at low levels, the fantasy is strongly rooted in reality. Thus, I would target the approximate power level of 1st level characters at about the Black Company - they're an elite mercenary unit, clearly a cut above the norm, but they're certainly not superhuman.

(This would be a step back in power from 4e, or even 3e. Although I'd probably leave the higher hit point total of 4e alone, as a concession to fun over 'realism'.)

Another thing that I think the game should probably cater for is classes of different complexity, to suit different players. In older editions, the model was "Fighters simple, Wizards complex", but I feel that was rather limiting. Instead, I think the game should try to have a 'simple', 'medium' and 'complex' expression of each archetype.

So, from Harry Potter, I would introduce an "Academy Mage" class, with a mostly-fixed spell list. (Possibly with a number of specialisms, like the Beguiler, Warmage or Dread Necromancer of 3e.) This would represent the formally-trained arcanist. The Wizard would be the 'complex' version of the class, being the guy who was trained one-on-one by a mentor, and there would also be a Wilder/Sorcerer class that was the 'medium' version, being the guy who is self-taught.

Another important lesson from Harry Potter: this is a fantasy game, so needs to include fantastic elements!

From the Black Company, Cornwell's books, and David Gemmell's Troy trilogy would come rules for mass-combats and, in particular, mounted and vehicular combat. These have typically been given short shrift in D&D, especially since 3e, but I think that is to the game's detriment. Essentially, at Heroic levels, PCs should be able to be part of the shield wall; at Paragon levels, they lead the shield wall; at Epic levels, they lead empires to war!

From Pratchett, Pullman, Gaiman and Bas-Lag (how could I forget that?) is a reminder that there's more to fantasy than just endless 'quest' adventures. So, things like the Dragonborn, Warforged and Shardminds all have a place, but also there is a place for odd and unexplained quirks in fantasy, legends that are hidden out of the way but still powerful, and out-and-out whimsy. Not all the time, of course, but sometimes. (Funny how the only things we would dream of taking from Wonderland are the vorpal sword and the Jabberwock.)

I think the game would also be better served by drawing a much clearer line between the tiers. In terms of mechanics, there's not that much between 10th level and 11th, but thematically maybe there should be.

I quite like the notion that moving between the tiers is a matter of choice - you cannot simply level from 10th to 11th by gaining enough experience points; you have to dedicate yourself to something.

We see the move to 1st level in the movie of Fellowship of the Ring with Sam ("This is it. If I take one more step, it's the furthest I've ever been from home."), in Star Wars with Luke ("I want to learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi like my father"), and in the Matrix where Neo takes the Red pill.

We see the move to the Paragon tier where Strider allows himself to be revealed as Aragorn, or where Gandalf faces the Balrog; in Empire Strikes Back when Luke leaves Yoda to go to Cloud City, and again in the Matrix when Neo gets up after being shot.

And the move to Epic can be seen in Return of the Jedi ("You've failed Your Highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."); in 300 when Leonidas must choose to take his army to face the invaders; in Matrix Revolutions ("Why keep fighting?", "Because I choose to."); and in Troy where Achillies is told that he can stay and live and be forgotten, or he can go to fight at Troy, where he will die, but be remembered forever.

(I think the concept of Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies is genius. But I think it could be invested with a bit more significance. And of course, you can dispute any or all of these choices; they're really just for illustration.)

Incidentally, I think that adopting a clear and stated division in the tiers would also help WotC in developing their adventures. If they clearly state something like "At 1st level, PCs hide from dragons; at 11th level, PCs fight dragons; at 21st level, PCs ride dragons" that should give them something to keep in mind when creating these things. It might just be enough to make the difference between adventures that feel properly epic, versus "here's a collection of encounters suitable to 21st level PCs". Maybe.

One other thing occurs to me from reading the various works, which is that out-and-out monsters appear to be quite rare, such that meeting one is a big thing. In "Lord of the Rings", there are plenty of orcs and a number of trolls (cave or otherwise), but outright monsters are rare and scary: Smaug, Shelob, nine Nazgul... Likewise, Conan generally met a monster in the course of one of his adventures, and otherwise fought men or degenerate humanoids. And, of course, Dracula and Frankenstein are unique monsters.

I think that may be something D&D could strive for more: if we're dealing with a five-room lair for a night's adventure, stick to fairly 'standard' creatures for the most part, but throw in one monster at the end... and really go all out with that one creature. For larger adventures, tend towards recurring creatures that tangle with the PCs several times (as in the original Ravenloft).

Would you take the mercanary company and non-divine medic (Croaker) from Black Company?

You know, I hadn't even considered this!

One thing that is quite noticable is that, outside of D&D fiction, there really isn't any concept of the "healer priest". You get warrior-priests (Bishop Turpin), you get mystic-priests (Gemmell's Source), you get exorcist-priests (Hammer horror), but there really doesn't seem to be anything akin to D&D's Cleric.

I think I'd be inclined to expand mundane healing and add in Arcane healing (and potentially Psionic healing), so that healing becomes something that any character can do. This then instantly removes the need for someone to grudgingly say, "I guess I'll play the Cleric then". (For 4e, insert Leader).

From there, I'd probably split the Cleric class into the three archetypes as above (and, actually, merge the warrior-priest with the Paladin; although I'd call the resulting class the Cleric, and eliminate the Paladin).

Oh, and a stylistic thing that is potentially minor, but maybe not: I would remove the word 'god' from the rulebooks entirely. Call them 'Powers' (hmm, maybe not :) ), and have the game support all sorts of Power - from the Small Gods of Pratchett and Roman mythology, through to the 'gods' fought by Conan, through to the archdemons fought by Elric and the gods who fought in the Trojan War, through to the untouchable overgod of Forgotten Realms (AO?).

The problem with using the word 'god' for D&D deities is that it carries a whole lot of real-world baggage with it, such that we get all sorts of arguments about whether PCs should be able to kill gods, at what level this should be done, and so on. An adjustment in the terminology here may well help, especially if the game is going to support both Issek of the Jug and Cyric the Mad at the same time.
 


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