Modification to LA - very vague idea

[Snowy]

I really like the idea of the LA races, however the way the system breaks down with fifth level characters with 1 HD or whatever bugs me. I'm not planning on re working the entire system and I don't particularly want a grand unified system, just to hash out some simple changes that'd prevent some of the glass cannon syndrome.

two main issues

lack of hit points (Um yeah, no reason needed)

lack of HD (spells such as holy word, blasphemy and the others)

OK I know that LA is there to add to racial HD to add to class levels to balance against a 0 racial HD and 0 LA creature. How it seems to me (I'm willing to be proved wrong) that the loss of HD for the higher LA races really really hurts.

I'm thinking ideally that the races should be set up as "racial levels" much as racial HD are added. This seems a lot of effort (perhaps immpossible) apart from maybe sorting it out on a "so you want to play a what? lets see what we can do basis"

Some options I've considered

giving each "level" of LA a HD (no bab no save progression, and presumably no feats or skill points) probably not a d8 more like a d4 or even a d2

Counting LA in addition to Class HD and Racial HD for spell effects (using ECL instead of HD basically)

giving con mod x LA bonus hit points


any ideas, contributions, smack down, war stories people want to share?

 

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

The problem is that it varies so much. Some, alright, many Level Adjusted races get hosed on hit points, but not all of them. Moreover, it matters more for some.

Imagine two races with LA+10 and 2 racial hit dice.

One is fey and would make a terrific sorcerer, but with just 3d4 hp at ECL 13. Bummer, maybe even a deal-breaker for some, but come on! Who plays arcanists for their hit points?

The other one is a giant, and is really only suitable as a brawler. Assuming Barbarian, what do giants get again? d10? So now the PC is ECL 13 and is supposed to be a mulcher with 16 hp+ CON?! Let's say that the thing has a 30 Constitution and rolls max hit points: 62 hit points for a 13th level melee combatant is untenable.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

That same giant though because of his uber constitution could have alot more HP than a fighter by level 20 (maybe not your specific made up example but there are some that I've seen). So that further complicates things.

 

[Drowbane]

lack of hit points (Um yeah, no reason needed)

lack of HD (spells such as holy word, blasphemy and the others)

OK I know that LA is there to add to racial HD to add to class levels to balance against a 0 racial HD and 0 LA creature. How it seems to me (I'm willing to be proved wrong) that the loss of HD for the higher LA races really really hurts.

any ideas, contributions, smack down, war stories people want to share?

IMC, I use Gestalt exclusively. While those rules don't address the issue of LA, the following is my take on it. I could explain best in person, so forgive me if this isn't explained very well. To make it easier I'll use examples.

Example 1: Human Fighter 3 | Rogue 3 ~ This character at lvl 3 is easy to make, you simply take the best of both classes and you're done.

Example 2: Aasimar Fighter 2 | Paladin 3 ~ Here it gets more complex.

Level 1: Aasimar | Rogue 1. Basicly Aasimar is replacing one level on half of the gestalt character's first lvl. He retains his Rogue skills, HD, BA, Saves, and class features and also gains all the benefits of being an Aasimar.
Level 2: At 2nd lvl he would gain Fighter BA, the best of Fighter and Rogue saves, d10 HD, Rogue Skills, 1st lvl Fighter feat, etc.

Make sense?

This variant allows for some really interesting (powerful?) characters, and you may need to lay down restrictions on what you will and will not tolerate.

One of my favorite builds with this is a Paragon 1/2 Dragon 3 | Sorceror 6. If you'd like a stat-block for what this would look like, lemme know.

 

[Arkhandus]

Breaking down LA and racial HD into racial levels can be done using Savage Species as a guideline. You could check a race in Savage Species and then check the same race in the 3.5 Monster Manual, find the differences, and then just tweak the Savage Species racial level progression to fix those differences. Not every MM monster is in Savage Species, but at least SS gives a Level Adjustment for everything in the 3.0 MM, which means most stuff in the 3.5 MM at least has a baseline of comparison for you to work with.

I wouldn't require PCs to take all racial levels before gaining class levels, though; Savage Species normally requires a character with racial levels to acquire all of their racial levels before entering any class.

Otherwise, I wouldn't consider a d4 HD per point of Level Adjustment to be too much. May or may not count as actual hit dice for all intents and purposes, not sure. If you give it BAB, base save, and skill point increases along with it, though, then you'd have to up the LA to compensate. Perhaps, for every 3 points of Level Adjustment, give the critter a d10 hit die, +1 BAB, 6 + Int skill points (choosing any six skills to be class skills for those hit dice), and +1 to all base saves. In this case, though, these hit dice would count as normal hit dice, so they'd count towards Character Level (such as for determining feats, ability increases, total ECL, EXP, etc.).

Or you could just break down racial abilities into a special Racial Level progression for any given race that a player wants to use.... Determine what racial abilities and adjustments go with the base race and racial hit dice, then determine what additional racial stuff they gain with each point of Level Adjustment. Allow them to take each Level Adjustment Racial Level in place of gaining an actual level, so for instance if they start at 10th-level and play a race with 3 racial hit dice and a +7 level adjustment, they might choose to start with 6 levels of fighter, plus the 3 racial hit dice and 1 level adjustment racial level. Making them actually 9th-level but with a +1 LA. Then when they level up to 11th, they might take another fighter level, or some other class level, or another level adjustment racial level. In the latter case they'd still be technically 9th-level but with a +2 LA.

For reference, I tend to consider each point of LA to be worth 8-12 feats in value, with a +2 to Str or Dex worth 3 or 4 feats, a +2 Con or Int worth 3 feats, and a +2 Wis or Cha worth 2 or 3 feats. Sort of follows the DMG's description of Str and Dex being most valueable, followed by Con and Int. To give ya some kind of basic starting point if you go that route.

 

[Snowy]

I hadn't even thought of just saying a HD per so many points of LA, thats a pretty cunning idea.

I'd also forgotten about savage species, its on my to buy list for when I've got some more money

I was trying to guesstimate a sort of rough guide to use instead of creating a creature level progression. Obviously it wont be perfect but it might work as a stop gap measure.

I'm currently thinking that giving d4 hitpoints per LA (+ con mod) sounds workable and not overly unbalanced, the next step I suppose is to work out some characters to see if they look about right. I'll knock up a teifling rogue and a normal rogue (well roughly) in a bit and post them, then I'll make a stab at a drow (they're LA +2 I think) then try and find something in the +4-6 range I guess.

If you guys and gals would comment on them I'll be eternally grateful

 

[Snowy]

oh cack I forgot to say present idea is for

d4 HD per point of LA
Skill points 2+ (in skill list of favoured class/or in those they get for racial HD, not sure which)
BAB cack as a wizards
Fort ref will Saves cack (the lowest progression)
HD count as HD (but not counting them twice to get the ECL)


hmmmm last bits confusing I'll do an example

ECL = RACIAL HD + LA + CLASS HD

HD = RACIAL HD + LA HD + CLASS HD

get feats and ability points per HD as normal (so they'll get more feats and ability points)