Modules, it turns out, apparently DO sell

I guess if all you module-guys are the "minority", then I'm solidly in the "majority".

My own RPG purchases over the last 10 years or so, expressed as a ratio of rulebooks:adventure modules, is probably something like 80:0 (which mathematically is a terrible ratio lol).

In fact, other than a couple of Dungeon magazines (fewer than 5), I don't think I have ever purchased an adventure module in my life. I got some sent to me for free as RPGA rewards, and had a couple given to me. I've played in a few, and I've certainly downloaded a large number of free adventures off the intarwebs. Not one red cent has come from me for the module market though.
 

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This is speculation.

Paizo started as a support company for D&D3e and managed to capitalise on their relationship to the D&D brand after Dragon and Dungeon were pulled. Thus, they managed to convert many of the customers to the new AP format, which was a very smart move.

But isn't this what almost every 3PP did... capitalize on their relationship to the D&D brand as support companies for whatever product they were producing? Is this any different than say Green Ronin converting D&D customers to Mutants and Materminds customers or Mongoose and Conan? If so please explain how...

But, as someone else has mentioned, Paizo is also the only company in the history of RPGs to have such a head start: an entire database of subscribers who were willing to pay for content. I don't know the conversion rate they managed, but even if they just managed to convert around 20%, that'd still translate in thousands of customers, willing to pay for content on a subscription basis.

I'd kill (figuratively speaking of course) to start an adventure publishing business with that kind of foundation in place.

Whoa now, I don't think that customer base or it's loyalty was just handed to Paizo, IMO... Paizo created that customer base and fostered their loyalty... through the work they did on the magazine and other products. If they had done a crap job, I don't think any of the factors you cite would have meant anything... especially since, if I remember correctly, the magazine readership was dying when it was handed over to Paizo.

This also occurred roughly as WotC started winding down D&D3e, basically ceding that market to whomever was left, i.e. Paizo. After D&D4e was released, or arguably after Paizo realised that the GSL wasn't their idea of a sound business foundation, they decided to put the Pathfinder rules on the market. IMO this in itself is a testament to the fact that "modules don't sell": the rules of the game were available for free on the internet, and the D&D3 rulebooks can be bought for a song on eBay, and yet Paizo needs to have a core rulebook in place.

Maybe the Pathfinder book scratches the "it's gotta be in print otherwise I won't buy the modules" itch that many gamers have, but I also believe that Paizo will start to transition to more rulebooks during the end of 2010 and during 2011. Add to this that the Pathfinder RPG was the huge success story of GenCon, selling tens of thousands of books. In an RPG market where a couple of thousand is considered a resounding success

First, I think your biggest mistake is in assuming that Paizo doesn't want to, or can't grow their customer base with new gamers. I know I would hate to tell a new player to find a copy of the game on ebay or get the SRD of the internet (which in fact is not easy to read through, and is actually missing some rules). Secondly... books deteriorate and/or are destroyed, I think making sure the rules are complete, available and easy to access is just common sense... especially if you offer a PFSRD and $10 PDF as an alternative... which again seems to go against the whole corebook = main revenue theory.

So ... hmmm ... I think that the need for a Pathfinder RPG was not urgent due to the rules being readily available in other books or on the net, and that the momentum of D&D3e carried over for Paizo until they managed to get Pathfinder in place.

The reason they sold modules in defiance of the commonly accepted conventional wisdom before the Pathfinder core rules were released was that they managed to capitalise on their exclusive access to a loyal customer base which were already spending money regularly, i.e. the Dungeon and Dragon customers.

Well we can agree to disagree about the necessity of the rulebook... since honestly I think a better question is if you are basing your products on a set of rules, isn't it smart business to make sure they are always and readily available... instead of being dependent upon others to make them available?

Also again, I see you attributing alot to the "Dungeons and Dragons customers" when I would argue they had already become Paizo customers through the efforts, good service and quality products Paizo put out. If they were "Dungeons and Dragons customers" well wouldn't they have went with 4th edition... or waited for it rather than go with a different game and company?

I suspect that Paizo will indeed end up doing that, once the subscribers have had their fill of adventure material. After 5000 pages, how many more pages can you sell to basically the same customer base? Another 5000? 10000? 1000? I don't know, but I believe that Paizo knows.

But given the subscription model, they might shift the adventure material into being more rules material, thus negating the need for a heavy hardback every other month.

Well, so far I believe they have 2 rulebooks scheduled for this entire year... The GameMastery Guide in July and the Advanced Players Guide in August. I guess it's possible they are sitting on releases between now and July or have a ton of rulebooks being developed and ready to flood the market between August and December... but somehow I doubt it. As a quick comparison, on a similar scale, look at how many rulebooks as opposed to adventures have come out for Dark Heresy 10 months out from FFG's release of the rules.

I think Paizo is successful because they started with a customer base that was ready to spend money regularly, and managed to build a business foundation on top of that.

It has, IMO and all that of course, very little to do with fluff or adventures, and everything to do with capitalising on a unique opportunity and shaping the product on offer to fit the customer base available.

Again we'll have to agree to disagree. I think there success is very much based on Knowing their customer base and pleasing them by not releasing a steady stream of classes, rules, prestige classes, etc. and instead building around adventures and fluff.

Why do I say that? While Paizo produces excellent stuff, they aren't the only ones to do so, and not the only ones to ever have done so. There's been people producing stellar fluff and adventures who haven't been able to reap the rewards as Paizo has, so to me it's obvious that there are other factors in play.

Like who? Who has created stellar adventures and fluff on a regular basis and with a dedicated focus on it... the closest I would say would be White Wolf... surprise, surprise they too at one point rose to rival D&D.

That said, if Paizo didn't produce top notch stuff, their business model would likely collapse due to churn among the customer base. They need to be the best to stay the best, which seems like an obvious thing to say, but many, many companies forget that.

Yep, totally agree.

Finally, when looking back at the major thing that the two most successful RPGs today have in common, it is ... a working subscription model.

Hmm... I think perhaps you put too much credence in this, especially since a "subscription model" is such a wide term and encompases so much it's almost meaningless.
 

In October of 2007, Erik Mona started a thread asking Paizo fans what rule's set we wanted them to use. I advise people to read it and consider how many of us said we would go where Paizo went. My own answer at the time was:
My response was as follows, and looking back with the benefit of hindsight oh boy was I wrong on a few assumptions - given that Pathfinder is now my system of choice and (other than eBay spend on old 1e/2e source materials and modules) Paizo gets near 100% of my gaming spend with Chronicles and Adventure Path materials.
crazy_cat on Paizo forums said:
Common sense tells me Paizo will convert to 4e, and I hope you do, as I think a 3.75 will probably kill the company. That said, even if you don't go to 4e (and I do) I'll still buy Pathfinder as no matter what edition its written for its still a quality product.
 

At the present time I am not DM'ing nor playing in any regular games. (My 4E game ended awhile ago). I do play the occasional pickup one-shot game, about once a month.

Nevertheless, I do regularly pick up the Pathfinder AP books to read. To me it's like reading "Dungeon Magazine" on better quality paper without any ads. I don't think I'll ever use much of the stuff I read.

Wonder how much of the Pathfinder sales (ie. APs, chronicles, companion, etc ...), are to people who just read them without ever playing or using much of the stuff in their own games.

For me that is partially true. While i use a lot of the paizo stuff I buy, I don't use it all. The fact is they come out with stuff faster than I can use it. Which brings me to the quote below.

As someone who doesn't really play any version of DnD, and doesn't run adventures, preferring more sandbox and character focused games using Savage Worlds or Burning Wheel or FATE, I still sometimes buy Pathfinder adventures.

Why do you ask? Because they make for interesting reads. I have zero interest in the system they use, and little to no interest in ever using them as anything other than possibly inspiration, but they read well. So every now and then I pick up one just for fun.

I'm definitely an outlier on this issue, but that's my story.

I am the same way, some of the stuff I get from paizo. I only buy to read because they come out with stuff faster than I can use it. But they are good reads anyways, so I keep buying it.

Honestly paizo reminds me a bit of White Wolf in it's early days. Back then I use to buy white wolf's world of darkness books just because they was good reads, even when I never used some of their books.
 

And yet WotC felt like releasing Revenge Of The Giants was a good idea (an adventure that from what I understand is mainly one giant battle after another, with very little 'roleplay' stuff in it). Doesn't the fact that they chose to spend development time on a product like this instead of a product like what Paizo releases, give us a better idea of what sells better for them in the business model they currently find themselves?

Wow that's one big assumption there... especially when a rep from the company has come to various messaqgeboards and asked for help in designing adventures. If the current adventures are working in the best possible way for their business model... why exactly would they do this?

And again... to your point that you feel a DM after 3rd level shouldn't need basic and simple... you're coming at that statement from the perspective of someone who's played many more rpgs than the base amount needed to get your first game to 3rd level. Or to even get your game to paragon or epic tier. I mean let's be honest here... do we really believe that a completely new group of kids learning rpgs for the first time who manage to get through Keep, Thunderspire, Pyramid, Trollhaunt and so on... are now so experienced with what roleplaying is about that they can now identify that what they are playing is subpar? Especially if they've never actually played any other RPGs by way of comparison? Some will, absolutely. But that doesn't mean they're the majority. And while your brother's experience with KotS is completely valid... that's just one person's experience. And I think the fact that WotC did not choose to go overly elaborate on their H/P/E series of modules tells us that they didn't feel it was important to their business model, and who they were marketing those modules to.

I think a better question is can they recognize it as boring, repetitive, confusing and so on... to which I would answer a resounding yes. The next question I would ask is how do you plan on retaining new gamers if your modules bore them to death or are less fun than numerous other activities they could be doing?

It all comes down to who and what those modules were meant to serve. And again... I'm willing to bet that that wasn't us.

Well in my oppinion you and WotC are vastly underestimating what people new to the game can handle. I personally believe it is more than fight after fight after fight (Since most people can get that from videogames)... but maybe I'm wrong, and new gamers can only handle simple, basic adventures for 30 levels and also maybe WotC asked for help with their adventures because they are doing great. However for some reason I just don't think that is the case.
 

I remember on of the Paizo head honchos (Eric??Lisa??) mentioning point #1 specifically.

Yes. And I remember the discussions about specific problems WotC had brought up (although not couched in those terms) and how PF would fix them.

Grapple, for instance.

What I've always found puzzling about the idea they wanted to keep the rules in print for people who wanted to carry on playing 3.5, is that they went and altered them.

I think that WotC's advertising the problems with 3e provided both opportunity and motive, which they were wise to take advantage of (even if they didn't move in the direction I would have preferred).


RC
 

My 2 year old twin boys are currently reading the Kingmaker AP. They now successfully can identify trolls, dragons (through the ad in the back of the adventure), spider, elf, owlbear (they always say "who-rawr!" as they know what an owl says and the bear individually...), and giants.

Awww...man I can't wait to DM for them in a couple years.

"Who-rawr!"
*L* that cracked me up.
 

And yet WotC felt like releasing Revenge Of The Giants was a good idea (an adventure that from what I understand is mainly one giant battle after another, with very little 'roleplay' stuff in it). Doesn't the fact that they chose to spend development time on a product like this instead of a product like what Paizo releases, give us a better idea of what sells better for them in the business model they currently find themselves?

No. All it does is gives us insight (limited) to what they were thinking at that point in time in which that product was green-lighted. We cannot state, with any degree of certainty, whether Revenge of the Giants would receive a green-light today. Quite frankly, we do not know how that one particular product sold nor do we know the feedback WotC has received regarding that product. For all we know, the feedback concerning that product could be "Hey! Where's the story? This is nothing but boring @$$ combats." Of course, it also could be "Awesome product! Keep 'em coming." The point is, I wouldn't hang my hat on the existence of any particular product to prove that the business model is/was/ever-will-be a success.
 

I look at the quality of product Paizo produces -- not just quantity, but the sheer quality of product in both content and presentation -- and I wonder *how the hell* they can do it with the size of market share they must have. And then I think, well perhaps their market share is bigger than I think.

What I really think is the case, though, is that they have a fanatical following comprised of a much larger portion of DM's than 4E, and the conversion rate of rules to adventures among this group is significantly higher than Wizards. There's a lot of gaming dollars in Paizo's demographic, and it seems as if they're willing to spend it.

4E is my game of choice at the moment for very many reasons, and we've been playing it for a long time. I think the system is fantastic. But there is absolutely no question in my mind which of these two companies produces the best adventures, and I hope that the recent survey by WotC on what's wrong with their output inspires them to follow Paizo's lead and take a few risks on their next generation of adventure output.
 

Pathfinder Society Modules

These little gems don’t get nearly the respect they deserve as they are sold as PDFs only. Erik Mona just released a double adventure module this past month with three more to follow this year. They are all at least 16 pages each, are in full color and each includes at least one page of professional Paizo quality color maps. Many of the modules exceed this “page” count by 2 to 4 pages. A few of these modules exceed the 16 page “limit” by a fair bit more than that (yes Erik Mona, I’m looking at you). Paizo releases at least two of these a month, but there have been exceptions to this which have actually pushed up that release schedule by a few more than that each year.

Wait - I can't really comment on the main topic here (as a player who buys far more rulebooks than adventures), but I'm a bit confused by this point. It was my understanding that Pathfinder Society was the living campaign for Pathfinder (similar to Living Greyhawk in 3rd Edition, and Living Forgotten Realms in 4E).

Are you saying that you have to pay to purchase the modules for Pathfinder Society? That completely blows my mind. Maybe it is just my own experiences in the other living campaigns, but having the adventures for it as items for sale rather than freely available for all gamers is just not something I would have expected.
 

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