mongoose books balanced?

[Crothian]

Another take on the fighting styles is they are for higher level fighters. By that time The Wizard and the Cleric have some spells that really out do everyone else. So, adding a little more power to the Fighter is okay in my book.

 

[Khan the Warlord]

I have to agree as well, the concepts remind me too much of 2e kits, that offered freebies in exchange for well...nothing really.

Considering that the layout and covers of the Quintessential lines almost mirror exactly the old 2e "Complete Book of" class lines, I guess the incorporation of kits from those books was only natural.

Originally posted by d20Dwarf

Not to hijack this thread, but the fighting schools in Path of the Sword are built exactly like Psion suggested, using XP costs to balance out minor but flavorful abilities.

IMHO, every class should have XP costs to help balance out new abilities, just as the spellcasting classes have when creating new magic items. Congrats on coming up with a very nice system there, Wil!

 

[Cheiromancer]

Wizards can expend time and money to research new spells (with the co-operation of the DM, of course)- which helps differentiate the character, and which undoubtably makes the wizard more flexible and powerful. What wizard does not benefit by a lot of neat new spells?

I think that the fighting styles are intended to offer the same kind of option for fighters. By spending time and money, and with the DM's cooperation, they can improve their character's fighting ability.

That being said, it is perfectly appropriate to require the payment of xp to learn fighting styles (but, to be fair, it should also be required to research new spells), or to build little prestige classes around the different fighting styles.

 

[kenjib]

The D&D rules have feats and prestige classes to provide access to new abilities. There was no reason to come up with a new mechanism in Quintessential Fighter. They should have just been feat chains or prestige classes (like in swashbuckling adventures).

 

[Khan the Warlord]

The D&D rules have feats and prestige classes to provide access to new abilities. There was no reason to come up with a new mechanism in Quintessential Fighter. They should have just been feat chains or prestige classes (like in swashbuckling adventures).

I agree and disagree with you here.

Having a plethora of new feats is both nice and difficult in the creation of a fighter (or any character for that matter), as you'll never quite have the character you envisioned from the start (most of the time).

With the approach that FFGs took, you can max out your feats to help dress your fighter and also burn some hard-earned XP to fine-tune your character to your satisfaction.

And amazingly enough, you actually have a fully developed and balanced character when everything is said and done.

/me is in shock

 

[Psion]

The D&D rules have feats and prestige classes to provide access to new abilities. There was no reason to come up with a new mechanism in Quintessential Fighter. They should have just been feat chains or prestige classes (like in swashbuckling adventures).

Yup. I can see how FFG's approach improves the situation, but I really think that the prestige class and feat chain mechanics are there for a REASON, and all these katas and external styles strike me as reinventing the wheel. I really appreciate the style prestige classes of Swashbuckling Adventures (and before that, Vrylakos' and Killer Shrike's efforts here on the boards.)

Mongoose's Elementalism book is a bit like this... it uses a chain of "circles" that have prerequisites and an XP cost. But it immediately betrays the weakness of this approach: in places where skill levels are a requirement, it is HEAVILY dependant upon the skills of the base class, making elementalism much more wizard-centric than was apparently intended. If it were a prestige class, you could still continue using the spellcasting aspects of your own class but could more fine-hone the skills you have, which to me seems a perfectly appropriate thing to do for someone whose abilities are caught up in this special training.

While the FFG styles may be an improvement, I still strongly feel that prestige classes and feat chains are well conceived and "the way to go."

 

[Khan the Warlord]

While the FFG styles may be an improvement, I still strongly feel that prestige classes and feat chains are well conceived and "the way to go."

Of course they are, but don't you believe that the limited number of feats (depending on class and race) actually hinders the full development of a character? I do, which is why I agree with FFG that an xp-cost-for-ability system is also a good "way to go". (Meaning, once you've exhausted your feats, don't be afraid of further enhancing your character by using the FFG system.)

And of course, there will be many players out there that won't enjoy the proposed system, but at least there is a balanced system in place now (no offense to Mongoose, but I don't believe that is balanced by far).

 

[Tsyr]

The D&D rules have feats and prestige classes to provide access to new abilities. There was no reason to come up with a new mechanism in Quintessential Fighter. They should have just been feat chains or prestige classes (like in swashbuckling adventures).

No offense intended, but to me this arguement seems alot like saying "DnD already has a hitpoint mechanic... there is no need to invent the Wounds/Vitality system, or Grim-n-Gritty", or "DnD already has a magic system, there is no reason to invent Psionics/Sov Stone/Shamanism/Demonology/Etc" or "DnD already has a ranger class, there is no need to make alt.rangers".

See what I'm driving at?

Just because it has been done is no reason to stop trying to come up with new, possibly better but most assuredly different ways to do it.

 

[Psion]

See what I'm driving at?

No.

I do not see the situation as analogous. Many of the things you described USE the class and feat system to acheive their ends, such as Psionics, Demonology, Necromancy, and both of the Shamans book. Others that you describe were changed to acheive an entirely different end. "Fighting styles" just use a different method to acheive the same thing.

 

[kenjib]

I do, which is why I agree with FFG that an xp-cost-for-ability system is also a good "way to go". (Meaning, once you've exhausted your feats, don't be afraid of further enhancing your character by using the FFG system.)

So the mechanism is that you can burn XP for extra power? So, 10th level characters can vary widely in how powerful they are with no mechanism to compensate CR? As a DM I can create an NPC of 10th level and tack on as many of these powers as I want and just say that "he already spent the XP to gain them."

I dunno -- new prestige or core classes seem more appropriate to me. I haven't seen the book that you're talking about though, so I'll have to take a look.