mongoose books balanced?

[Crothian]

So the mechanism is that you can burn XP for extra power? So, 10th level characters can vary widely in how powerful they are with no mechanism to compensate CR? As a DM I can create an NPC of 10th level and tack on as many of these powers as I want and just say that "he already spent the XP to gain them."

I dunno -- new prestige or core classes seem more appropriate to me. I haven't seen the book that you're talking about though, so I'll have to take a look.

There are also level limits in the game. By your thinking you could do the same with magical items claimig that the NPC adventured and just found them. Or the NPc made them all and the XP was already calculated. Of course as DM you can already do a lot of things that within the rules that would be considered abusive. So, even if this can it's up to the DM to have some sort of common sense.

 

[Khan the Warlord]

There are also level limits in the game. By your thinking you could do the same with magical items claimig that the NPC adventured and just found them. Or the NPc made them all and the XP was already calculated. Of course as DM you can already do a lot of things that within the rules that would be considered abusive. So, even if this can it's up to the DM to have some sort of common sense.

Very well said.

(Dang, you got to it before I did.)

 

[Psion]

So the mechanism is that you can burn XP for extra power? So, 10th level characters can vary widely in how powerful they are with no mechanism to compensate CR?

I get where you are going there, and agree, but if so, that will not be the only offender. Consider item creation feats, permanency, and (now) epic spells. I don't like it, but it seems to be a tolerated weakness.

Now, once I get Path of the Sword, I'm sure that I'll give it a looksie to see if (as Chester suggests) there is some advantage to using paths instead of feats and prestige classes. But if not, it will share the same fate as Mongoose styles do: fodder for more prestige classes.

 

[Khan the Warlord]

Now, once I get Path of the Sword, I'm sure that I'll give it a looksie to see if (as Chester suggests) there is some advantage to using paths instead of feats and prestige classes.

We're on a first-name basis again, Alan?

(BTW my friend, you're sorely missed at the Pits.)

But if not, it will share the same fate as Mongoose styles do: fodder for more prestige classes.

I'm not saying that the FFG system is perfection, but I'm pretty sure that the public would agree that it definitely needs less work (if any) than Mongoose's system to be implemented in their games and deemed "balanced".

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I tend to agree with Psion and others here that Feat chains are the way to go.

Using XP as a controlling device doesn't work very well, at least not in the "pay X to get Y" variant. It works ok for "one shot" things like creating magic items or casting powerful spells. It doesn't work at all for "permanent purchases" like Fighting Styles or (IMHO, and just as an example) the bonus Familiar abilities from Spells & Spellcraft.

In my own design work I very early threw XP costs out as a balancing mechanism. I might be tempted to reconsider XP as a balancing force if the cost was ongoing, as in the case of the %XP penalty for "abnormal" multiclassing. But I haven't really bothered to crunch the numbers on it yet simply because I prefer to balance with Feats and Skills.

XP defines character level, character level defines Feats and Skills, Feats and Skills define character abilities. I think XP is "too far removed" from character abilities to be an effective balancing factor.


Wulf

 

[Psion]

(BTW my friend, you're sorely missed at the Pits.)

Well, as I have told other denizens of the pits, I cannot reach the dreadgazebo server from work (shrug). The old ROE server worked fine.

I'm not saying that the FFG system is perfection, but I'm pretty sure that the public would agree that it definitely needs less work (if any) than Mongoose's system to be implemented in their games and deemed "balanced".

Well, there is that. That would be enough for me to let players use it if they were really interested (but I doubt it... I have way more books than any of my players.) But if it came down to what I am actually going to do when implementing my own ideas, it's prestige classes and feats all the way.
FWIW, I do think Legendary Classes are a decent idea.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

There are also level limits in the game. By your thinking you could do the same with magical items claimig that the NPC adventured and just found them. Or the NPc made them all and the XP was already calculated. Of course as DM you can already do a lot of things that within the rules that would be considered abusive. So, even if this can it's up to the DM to have some sort of common sense.

But the DMG already provides guidelines for this. First, and most directly, guidelines are provided to show how many magic items (in gp value) an NPC should have to be properly balanced.

It goes on to say that NPC's capable of item creation can purchase the corresponding magic items at 70% of cost, or thereabouts-- and in any case, Item Creation costs a feat (or more) as well.

Does it make a difference to the players if the NPC wizard they are up against has 4 or 5 item creation feats and a few more magic items, or if he has 4 or 5 metamagic feats to jack up his damage, DCs, and his ability to cast? You betcha.

Wulf

 

[Voadam]

The enchiridion of mystic music also has a "new class ability for xp" system. It gives music abilities for a cost of 100 xp per prereq rank of perform of the ability and it seems balanced to me. For the classes that don't get lots of bonus feats, the xp system seems a good choice mechanically for making core classes more flexible. I would have little problems using a system like the Enchiridion's in my campaign (once you ditch his "teachers can spend the xp" rules). Prestige classes are fine but they can be very organization and DM specific while xp costs can be more applicable similar to feats.

 

[Voadam]

Shark,

Don't forget to mention the Slayer's Guide to Shark's Minotaurs, or whatever it is that you are working on for Mongoose.

Astragoth

I don't have QF but I do have Quintessential Wizard and I like it a lot, neat item ideas, prcs, feats, and spells as well as research and apprentice rules.

 

[Crothian]

But the DMG already provides guidelines for this. First, and most directly, guidelines are provided to show how many magic items (in gp value) an NPC should have to be properly balanced.

It goes on to say that NPC's capable of item creation can purchase the corresponding magic items at 70% of cost, or thereabouts-- and in any case, Item Creation costs a feat (or more) as well.

Does it make a difference to the players if the NPC wizard they are up against has 4 or 5 item creation feats and a few more magic items, or if he has 4 or 5 metamagic feats to jack up his damage, DCs, and his ability to cast? You betcha.

Wulf

Good points. They should have given guidelines for using these abilities with NPCs. It does give a little extra work for a DM to use them for NPCs, but I still think (becasue I've been able to do it) that it can be done in a fair way.

Another reason why I like them is it gives me an additional way to increase PCs power instead of magical items. I'm not a big fan or the large use of magical items in the game. So, I can use these rules to increase the characters powers while lessoning the amount of magic they have.