Monk a striker: Why? (Forked Thread: 3rd Party Poopers)

[TwinBahamut]

Yet Fighters and Rogues are both Martial. Wizards and Bards (at least in 3e) are both Arcane. Your argument breaks down because although there is a narrow focus to each power source, not everything under that power source looks exactly the same. Bards don't throw fireballs, for instance. I find it difficult to consider Barbarians and Druids simply variations on a theme.

Yes, Fighters and Rogues are both Martial. That doesn't change my point (actually, it is quite assumed in my point). Both are classes that "use weapons very well, and little else". Barbarians and Druids both work on the concept of "totems, spirits, and transformations". I'm not a DDI Subscriber, so I haven't seen the Bard.

Things don't need to be exactly the same, but there is only so much room for variation. There is a unified core concept that is common to every class in a power source, even if the mechanical interpretation differs each time (within reason). For my understanding of Ki (and the way I hope it will be), having a class be built completely around an elemental system would be outside of the core concept, just as much as shooting fireballs is outside the realm of the Martial power source's core concept.

The elemental magic of the shugenja is probably partially inspired by the Book of Five Rings by Musashi, from which Lot5R takes its name. Those books are named Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, and No-thing. Traditional Chinese medicine usually posits five elements, rather than four, but the idea of elemental forces and natural balance are a part of Chinese medicine, martial arts, geomancy, feng shui, etc.

The five elements of fire, water, earth, air, and heaven/sky/void is much older and more fundamental than Musashi's Book of Five Rings. It is a Buddhist/Indian concept originally, and it is something of a pet peeve of mine that everyone seems to think that Musashi's writing was the end-all be-all of Japanese beliefs and culture (I hate Rokugan so much...).

I prefer the Chinese five-element system to the other one, really. The five elements of Fire, Water, Wood, Metal (gold), and Earth (soil) are pretty cool, and have some interesting interactions you can't get in a four element or four-plus-one element system.

Tangent aside, I understand how thoroughly these elements are ingrained into certain Chinese martial arts. Of course, they are not universally important to martial arts. Alternative concepts, like the Eight Trigrams, Yin and Yang, the Four Symbols (and Twenty-Eight Mansions), etc, are also pretty important to various martial arts and philosophies. However, this is really pretty irrelevant.

The Shugenja, as seen in Rokugan, is a magician. By its concept, it is a class built around people who change the world through magic developed through study of the elements, mysticism, and philosophy. It is a great concept, but it is a very different one from a martial artist who uses mysticism in order to push his own physical capabilities beyond what is normally possible. What is more, it is very different from the idea of "ki" as being a form of pure, non-elemental energy that is so very common in pop-culture (and which I think is important to the the idea of a Ki Power Source).

I don't see how there is a conceptual problem with ki, on the one hand, empowering a fist to break solid stone, and on the other, being used to manipulate elemental fire or wind. Martial arts cinema and mythology is full of elemental effects, including hurling fire, wind, "iron" body techniques, and so forth. Maybe it is difficult for you to visualize what I am talking about, but I don't see any obstacle to a ki-based elementalist, just as there are wizards, psions, clerics, and druids who all influence the elements.

I can see empowering a fist to smash stone. However, I do see a problem manipulating elemental wind (well, outside of Avatar the Last Airbender). It may be odd to you, but there is a pretty clear distinction in my head. I mean, I can easily imagine a Ki class swinging a sword to create a classic "vacuum wave" air slash effect, or someone protecting an invisible ball of ki from a palm strike that strikes a foe like a bullet made from air, but pure "magic-like" effects of elemental forces, which depend on ritual or something completely unconnected from physical effort and displays of martial art skill, just don't connect as belonging to the Ki Power Source.

Saying "That is magic, no ki" is just a personal prejudice. Ki can be used for magic. I don't know that 4e will take that direction, but it seems like a natural fit to me. If the monk's abiliities were not overtly supernatural, the monk would just be Martial.

Of course the Monk's abilities should be overtly supernatural if it is going to be a Ki class rather than a Martial class. I think I have said so myself. But it doesn't have to be elemental in order to be supernatural.

Besides, you should keep in mind that I have tried to make a distinction between "Ki" and the Ki Power Source. I have no problem with Ki (the concept) being linked with magic, mysticism, the elements, and everything else. However, just because a class's abilities can be described as Ki does not mean that it belongs in the Ki Power Source. As I hope I mentioned above, I want Ki to be the "supernatural Martial", something built just as much round weapons, direct combat, and physical ability as the Martial power source, but with an added supernatural edge that allows for flashier moves and superhuman feats. Something like the Rokugan Shugenja is perfectly valid, but it lacks the focus on direct combat, weapon-use, and physical ability that I think is essential to a Ki Power Source.

If it helps explain my point any more, keep in mind that I argued that the Rokugan Shugenja would work well in the same power source as a more fantastic Ninja class, which may very well be the Elemental Power Source. I said the Ninja would work well in such a power source primarily because I have played a number of videogames in which Ninja are partially wizard-like characters who use magical "jutsu" techniques that manipulate either the four aristotelian elements (Seiken Densetsu 3) or the five chinese elements (Final Fantasy Tactics Advance), and I love that concept. I don't think that concept belongs in the Ki Power Source, but I would love to see a power source dedicated to it.

 

[pawsplay]

The Shugenja, as seen in Rokugan, is a magician. By its concept, it is a class built around people who change the world through magic developed through study of the elements, mysticism, and philosophy. It is a great concept, but it is a very different one from a martial artist who uses mysticism in order to push his own physical capabilities beyond what is normally possible. What is more, it is very different from the idea of "ki" as being a form of pure, non-elemental energy that is so very common in pop-culture (and which I think is important to the the idea of a Ki Power Source).

The distinction is far less clear when you watch, say, Chinese Ghost Story. Spirit magic? Sorcery? Divine magic (chanting Sanskrit, no less)? Ki?

I can see empowering a fist to smash stone. However, I do see a problem manipulating elemental wind (well, outside of Avatar the Last Airbender). It may be odd to you, but there is a pretty clear distinction in my head. I mean, I can easily imagine a Ki class swinging a sword to create a classic "vacuum wave" air slash effect, or someone protecting an invisible ball of ki from a palm strike that strikes a foe like a bullet made from air, but pure "magic-like" effects of elemental forces, which depend on ritual or something completely unconnected from physical effort and displays of martial art skill, just don't connect as belonging to the Ki Power Source.

I just saw Kung Fu Panda, which clearly has creating wind as a use of ki projectoin, and I recently watched The Forbidden Kingdom, which has fiery ki blasts. You seem to feel that "telekinesis = Ki" is okay, whereas, "fiery blast = ki" is not. To me, telekinetic blasts are just as magical and flashy as fire manipulation.

However, just because a class's abilities can be described as Ki does not mean that it belongs in the Ki Power Source.

Of course. All that the Ki power source tells us, ultimately, is that someone thought a class's abilities belonged there.

Something like the Rokugan Shugenja is perfectly valid, but it lacks the focus on direct combat, weapon-use, and physical ability that I think is essential to a Ki Power Source.

That's a perfectly reasonable preference. But I would like to point out that it is simply that, a preference. I think a ki-wielding, elemental shugenja armed with a naginata would be a perfectly fine archetype to work with.

 

[Cadfan]

I think the problem people are having is that in 3e, the Shugenja was clearly a spellcaster. It wasn't a martial artist. And while it is asian in theme, that doesn't automatically make it Ki. Or at least it seems like it shouldn't, if the class is just a spellcaster with an unusual spell list. I know coming up with an exact historical definition of "ki" is going to be a hopeless task, because people in real life didn't believe in power sources quite the way they're envisioned in D&D, but there does seem to be a difference between martial arts mythology and asian superstition about wizards and sorcerers, and this seems a fair line to draw.

But if you want to re envision the Shugenja and add martial arts combat, but also keep it as a more spell-castery martial arts combat, I'm cool with that being ki.

It isn't a very complex logic here- if you use throw balls of fire at people while standing around in robes, you're a spellcaster and you probably shouldn't be using Ki as its traditionally envisioned. Even if your asian-themed. But if you attack someone with a naginata, and THEN throw a ball of fire at them, we can talk.

 

[TwinBahamut]

The distinction is far less clear when you watch, say, Chinese Ghost Story. Spirit magic? Sorcery? Divine magic (chanting Sanskrit, no less)? Ki?

I just saw Kung Fu Panda, which clearly has creating wind as a use of ki projectoin, and I recently watched The Forbidden Kingdom, which has fiery ki blasts. You seem to feel that "telekinesis = Ki" is okay, whereas, "fiery blast = ki" is not. To me, telekinetic blasts are just as magical and flashy as fire manipulation.

I haven't watched Chinese Ghost Story or Kung Fu Panda, so I can't comment, but I have recently watched The Forbidden Kingdom (which was a lot of fun ). I can't really say that anything in there was really "ki" or not, actually, since the whole movie was so thoroughly tied up with all kinds of chinese mysticism and a number of immortals and gods running around... Pulling anything apart is pretty difficult.

However, to clear up the record of what I have said... I have nothing wrong with fiery ki blasts in a Ki Power Source class. I think I mentioned above that any particular energy keyword is probably okay for the Ki Power Source. "Ki" does not have to be telekinetic. Actually, I don't think of it as that at all. In what you quoted, I was more referring to the pure energy you see in the Dragonball and Yu Yu Hakusho anime, or the Hadoken from Street Fighter, though I suppose I shouldn't say that "ki" should be limited to that... My problem is with the other aspects of your Shugenja concept, not affixing elemental energy properties and keywords to Ki Power Source attacks and powers.

If it makes it any clearer, elemental attacks created from someone standing back, chanting some words, and creating some kind of flame dragon to rise from a magic formula written into a scroll is not what I would consider Ki Power Source material, even if you can argue that it is "ki". However, a guy lighting his hand of fire with his will, punching an enemy, snapping his finger, and causing a ball of flame ki he planted on the enemy's body to explode is more what I would consider Ki Power Source to be. The difference is the punch, I guess, and the sense that the power is projected from within the user, not controlled from a distance. The power of Ki would come from the body of the user and be channeled through or projected from a fist or a weapon...

Maybe I am just too thoroughly in favor of the idea that Ki Power Source = characters from Street Fighter or King of Fighters.

That's a perfectly reasonable preference. But I would like to point out that it is simply that, a preference. I think a ki-wielding, elemental shugenja armed with a naginata would be a perfectly fine archetype to work with.

Well, yes, it is a preference. One that I will continue to vouch for wherever the WotC people might hear me, in the hopes that it will come true.

As for that description of the Shugenja... I guess it depends on how important the naginata is to the powers for determining whether it fits into my preference of not (since it is clear that you like it ). A good rule of thumb is that, if the enhancement bonus on the naginata affected the powers' attack rolls, it might work as a Ki Power Source character for me.

I think the problem people are having is that in 3e, the Shugenja was clearly a spellcaster. It wasn't a martial artist. And while it is asian in theme, that doesn't automatically make it Ki. Or at least it seems like it shouldn't, if the class is just a spellcaster with an unusual spell list. I know coming up with an exact historical definition of "ki" is going to be a hopeless task, because people in real life didn't believe in power sources quite the way they're envisioned in D&D, but there does seem to be a difference between martial arts mythology and asian superstition about wizards and sorcerers, and this seems a fair line to draw.

But if you want to re envision the Shugenja and add martial arts combat, but also keep it as a more spell-castery martial arts combat, I'm cool with that being ki.

It isn't a very complex logic here- if you use throw balls of fire at people while standing around in robes, you're a spellcaster and you probably shouldn't be using Ki as its traditionally envisioned. Even if your asian-themed. But if you attack someone with a naginata, and THEN throw a ball of fire at them, we can talk.

This sums it up pretty closely to what I was arguing. Thank you, Cadfan. I am amazed at how often I agree with what you say...

It almost sounds like we are all drawing closer to a consensus/agree-to-disagree situation here. That is pretty nice.

 

[Xris Robin]

Me, I just want a few things. Some sort of Wuxia-inspired class, a Ninja who's more than a reflavored Rogue, and some sort of yes, Street Fighter or King of Fighters type fighter.

Actually, I suppose I just want Asian flavored stuff in general. Just for the sake of being a little different from the normal European inspired fantasy. For that matter, I'd like a little more variety with that, too.

 

[Ydars]

For me, the divide between marshal arts and magic is clear.

Magic affects the world and the rules that govern it. It literally changes reality in a small area and can create something from nothing. Magic= changing the world!

Marshal arts use Ki to change only the mind and body of the person using them. So you can change your fists so they are like stone, become super accurate at throwing and resist poisons. Ki = changing yourself!

So for me, self buffing using Ki is OK but direct damage using elements is not Ki, it is magic. Ancient chinese legends seem to speak of a time when Ki could be used to do magic, but imply that this is no longer possible. Psionics would blend better with Ki than magic thematically because the two spring from the same source; the power over the self.

I guess I would like Ki to remain non-magical at the beginning so that it represents characters with incredible discipline and practise. I just want some more non-magical options because we can all think of a thousand magical classes but the truth is that Ki is NOT magical in the real world and there is no need to invoke this to portray it in the game.

Then we can add magic or psionics to ki later, to create the more Wushu type classes afterwards.

 

[pawsplay]

I know coming up with an exact historical definition of "ki" is going to be a hopeless task, because people in real life didn't believe in power sources quite the way they're envisioned in D&D, but there does seem to be a difference between martial arts mythology and asian superstition about wizards and sorcerers, and this seems a fair line to draw.

I agree there is a line. I just feel that the shugenja is a mystic/martial artist and belongs on that side of the line, rather than the "unnatural powers" side of the line. Even in the (sparse) 3e writeup, shugenja are scholars and priests, not dabblers in occult forces. In 4e terms, I can see shugenja being analogous to druid in the same way the monk is analogous to the barbarian.

 

[Klaus]

In Kung Fu, your advance down the enlightenment road is measured by your ability to kick ass, so I think any martial arts monk should be Martial, and not Ki/Psionic. The 4e PHB already states that Martial isn't "nonmagical", and the Martial classes in the PHB can already do things that are all but magical.

 

[Felon]

Hmm. Martial arts should be martial. So crazy it just might work.

 

[pawsplay]

Rolemaster actually took that route. Warrior Monks have Adrenal skills that allow them to pull off amazing leaps and fight without armor. There is a separate class, Monk, that is an Essence user (like wizards and alchemists) who performs classic kung fu "magic" such as prodigious leaps, self healing, and the like.