Monk a striker: Why? (Forked Thread: 3rd Party Poopers)

[pawsplay]

I could see a martial controller. It might be a bit contrived, but no moreso than some other 4e stuff. Examples:

- A melee attack that damages one target and then hits enemies in a cone with fear.
- Allowing his allies to make free attacks on people who move into a certain zone
- Guarding a certain zone; if anyone enters it, he immediately moves next to them and makes an attack.
- Attacking everyone in an area.
- Attacking someone and immediately springing away from them.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Pfft. People thought the Barbarian was going to be a Defender, too.

There's too much confusion about what the Roles actually are for anyone to give factuality to it.

For my money, though, I'd say Monks would make a better Controller than a Striker.

Monks have never been about hitting particularly hard. They attack with their fists, which are impressively equal to swords, but not superior to swords.

People think they make good strikers because of mobility and agility, but that is also the trait that makes them good Controllers.

Martial arts have been more about disarming, tripping, stunning, disabling, and otherwise limiting the actions that an enemy can do to you. Multiple attacks like Flurry of Blows and a high speed and Atheltics score just help the monk do it to many people at once.

I mean, check the Druid's melee control abilities. The monk will look a lot like that, I bet.

I see them having some striker-ish and defender-ish qualities, but their main role should be Controller. It fits with what martial arts in general are about: controlling your opponent's movements, using them against him, and putting him at a disadvantage.

 

[doctorhook]

I think the Monk is a shoe-in for Ki Striker, for all of the normally cited reasons.

That said, given that we're talking about the Ki power source (rather than Martial), the Controller becomes a more viable option, since the power source isn't based upon providing the illusion of RL possibility. What Ki concept could be Controller-y? Dragonball Z-style energy attacks, baby!

Don't laugh. 3.5E's PH2 had a feat that let Monks expend uses of Stunning Fist to throw orbs of energy.

If that doesn't work for you, how about a Yogic-reach concept? (I'm currently imagining that dude from Street Fighter II.) Thanks to his mastery of self, this warrior can extend himself in supernatural ways during combat, in order to reach much further than another pugilist would be able to.

 

[Imban]

Why does everyone (ok not everyone obviously, but a good majority from my experience) seem to pigeon-hole the Monk into a Striker?

Because they were in basically all the other editions they were in, at least theoretically.

What gets me there is his insistence upon a 3rd-party Monk not using too much in the way of ki powers, when I'll be surprised if the official one doesn't at least have Hadouken as an official power. Perhaps even an at-will power.

 

[Klaus]

Pfft. People thought the Barbarian was going to be a Defender, too.

There's too much confusion about what the Roles actually are for anyone to give factuality to it.

For my money, though, I'd say Monks would make a better Controller than a Striker.

Monks have never been about hitting particularly hard. They attack with their fists, which are impressively equal to swords, but not superior to swords.

People think they make good strikers because of mobility and agility, but that is also the trait that makes them good Controllers.

Martial arts have been more about disarming, tripping, stunning, disabling, and otherwise limiting the actions that an enemy can do to you. Multiple attacks like Flurry of Blows and a high speed and Atheltics score just help the monk do it to many people at once.

I mean, check the Druid's melee control abilities. The monk will look a lot like that, I bet.

I see them having some striker-ish and defender-ish qualities, but their main role should be Controller. It fits with what martial arts in general are about: controlling your opponent's movements, using them against him, and putting him at a disadvantage.

Add to that punching or stomping the ground to create a zone of difficult terrain, using swaying motions to lift clouds of dust, deflect (and later reflect back) incoming ranged attacks...

 

[Saurdaux]

In the context of other likely Ki-based classes, Monk seems the most Strikerish. Given the pool of established classes that, at least somewhat fit the Ki style, I see the Class/Role spread unfolding thusly:

Samurai - Defender
Wu Jen - Controller
Shugenja - Leader
Monk - Striker

We also have the wild card of Ninja (surely striker, but of questionable power source). This should, of course, be taken with the caveat that it's based on the assumption that they'll probably use Ki as the catch-all for Asian-themed classes of the Oriental Adventures variety.

 

[Rechan]

We also have the wild card of Ninja (surely striker, but of questionable power source). This should, of course, be taken with the caveat that it's based on the assumption that they'll probably use Ki as the catch-all for Asian-themed classes of the Oriental Adventures variety.

Ninja, in traditional legend, had lots of magical power. Their ability to disappear wasn't just high stealth, it was literally 'they were just in this room'. It implies a level of invisibility.

Also, they are known for powers of clairvoyance, and a little precognition.

If a Ki-controller can stomp the ground, greating difficult terrain, then a Ki-Ninja would hit someone's chakra or power point in order to explode their heart.

A Ki-Ninja woudl look something like the Shadow Hand from Tome of Battle.

 

[pawsplay]

As for the monk... who said Strikers had to be about the DPS? Zooming past enemy warriors and stunning the caster is still in the Striker purview, even if your Defender steps in to actually help finish the mopping.

I think the Shugenja is a shoe-in for the Ki Controller. It's Oriental, it has a 3e pedigree, and it's conceptually simple. It would be basically a Controller, with the secondary role depending a lot on their elemental focus. That gives you four builds, right off the bat, which is appealing from a design standpoint. They don't overlap visually or in terms of equipment with other classes. Their ofuda would be useful as implements. Plus, they even come with their own ready made Paragon Path... the Void Disciple.

Ki Striker - Monk
Ki Defender - Kensai (one build with armor, one without)
Ki Controller - Shugenja
Ki Leader - Samurai

 

[Saurdaux]

Regarding Ninja:

I can see them being Ki Strikers, with a heavy stealth theme. Build-wise, maybe one focused on range (shurikens and the like, ninja magic stuff) or melee (light blade, fist, claw weapons). Though on the other hand it could be cool with a Shadow power source, too. Likewise Wu Jen and Shugenja with Elemental.

Regarding Shugenja as Controller:

The reason I went with leader for shugenja is due to previous editions' casting them in a more spellcasting-heavy cleric-like role. The Wu Jen was the Asian wizard analogue, hence controller.

Regarding Kensei/Samurai:

Kensei is already a fighter Paragon Path, so that's right out. I do like the idea of armored and unarmored builds, though. Still, given the pedigree as the Asian-style fighter, I see the Samurai as defender, maybe with options for dual-wield or two-hander.

 

[Cadfan]

Not every 4e class has to be named after and built after a 3e class.

Really, we'll probably get a monk, ninja, and samurai, just because those are the classic classes that fans will demand. But the fourth class doesn't have to be the wu jen. It could be, but in 3e, the wu jen didn't even sort of look like a ki class. It was straight up arcane.