Monk and Stoneskin

[Pielorinho]

So we've got 300 archers and a beholder who somehow manage to ambush a balor.

Surprise round:
Beholder opens antimagic eye
300 archers fire at balor.
Balor is hit, on average, by 5% of shots, or 15 arrows, for 67 points of damage. One of those shots may critical (chances are it won't, however), upping damage to 76 points of damage.
Balor looks displeased

First round:
Balor wins initiative
Balor flies up and behind beholder
Balor teleports to a local evil temple.
Archers and beholder realize that maybe this wasn't such a good idea.

Second-seventh rounds:
Balor commands all the local evil priests to heal him, posthaste
Archers and beholder look for places to hide

Eighth round:
Balor teleports 500 feet above the battle.
Archers and beholder, swearing, scatter.

Ninth round:
Balor [edit: having disguised himself as a Beholder, you happy now, Karinsdad? ] drops down to 250 feet above ambush site and casts fire storm.
Archers and beholder fry.

Tenth round:
Balor checks stopwatch. Another threat defeated in less than a minute.

Note that if the archers have evasion, then some of them may live; the beholder, however, is very likely to die (20d6 points of damage = 70 points damage on average, or 35 points if it rolls 18 or better on its reflex save). And once the beholder is dead, the archers don't stand a chance.

I wouldn't give this ambush even odds of success. Make it 500 archers and three beholders, and I'd be willing to give it even odds.

Of course, 500 1st-level fighters should be CR 19, roughly. So that's not too far off.

Daniel

 

[KarinsDad]

Beholder drops down to 250 feet above ambush site and casts fire storm.

Wow!

That's a neat trick for a Beholder.

 

[Caliban]

Magic Missile can be used on a single target. I do not recall the wording of the feat being that you could not use it on a spell that allows single or multiple targets as long as you use it on a single target.

"the character can have them strike a single creature or several creatures"

If they strike a single creature, then it is a single target.

The spell has to specify a single target. Magic missiles specifies that it can affect multiple targets.

Magic Missile cannot be Chained.

Two issues here:

1) You do get an extra Haste. Granted this is minor, but the feat gives you more than a spell specifically intended to do this. Hmmmm.

2) You do not have to learn Mass Haste and can learn a different 6th level spell in it's place (or save the 1200 GP). Learning Haste (which most casters who would want Mass Haste would do anyway) is sufficient. Again, not a big deal, but when combined with the other spell combinations and amount of spell power this feat gives you, it adds up.

Hmmm... So basically you are saying that it's worth spending one of your few feats on this. Sounds fair.

I just think that a feat to use a single 9th level spell slot to give you the same result as using 6 6th, 4 7th, 3 8th, AND 3 9th level spells, but casting it in one hour instead of seventeen hours is somewhat broken. There is a reason they gave Create Undead a one hour casting time.

And, I'm sure there are even better examples.

I seriously doubt it.

At 17th level (when you can do this) a 17th level cleric can wipe out all those undead within a round or two. It's not that powerful.

It's merely a matter of simple mathematics.

Certain spells can have their number of targets multiplied by a factor of (Caster Level + 1).

For spells that are not really caster level dependent (e.g. Create Undead), it is really unbalanced to have one spell 3 levels higher take the place of x spells of the appropriate level, y spells of level plus one, z spells of level plus two, and often one or more spells of level plus three. Fairly simple math. Plus, the casting time for replacing these types of spell is divided by Caster Level + 1 since you cast one spell instead of X spells.

Mass haste already let's ou affect 11 targets instead of 1 target, thereby saving you several rounds and nearly a dozen Haste spells.

The Chain Spell feat merely allows you to do the same thing without learning a new spell. There are several feats like this that allow you to use a lower level spell to duplicate the effects of a higher level version of the spell. (Extend, Maximize, Empower,etc.)

And it's simple mathematics that when you are 6 levels higher things that took a long time or a lot of effort at lower levels are now relatively easy. This is especially true when it comes to spells. Chain Spell can be a good feat because it allows you to save a Known spell slot, or space in your spellbook.

Sigh. Yes, I have.

Then why do you keep using spells that it can't affect (or provides only a marginal benefit for) as examples of how uber and broken it is?

It just sounds uber to me. I dislike uber.

The only spell you've shown it to have a large effect on (that can't be replicated by an existing higher level spell) is Create Undead. It's good, but as you yourself pointed out you can duplicate the effects of the feat just by casting the unaltered spell several times. So all it's saving it time with that spell.

And I can easily see a 9th level "Mass Create Undead" spell that does the same thing as the chain spell feat.

 

[Pielorinho]

Wow!

That's a neat trick for a Beholder.

Smartass! (edited above)

Daniel

 

[KarinsDad]

The spell has to specify a single target. Magic missiles specifies that it can affect multiple targets.

Magic Missile cannot be Chained.

That is debatable.

Magic Missiles specifies within the text "If you shoot multiple missiles, you can have them strike a single creature or multiple creatures."

Additionally, Magic Missiles states in the target: "Up to five creatures".

One is part of the subset of up to five.

Earlier in the thread, you mentioned that Greater Magic Weapon could only be used to target individual weapons, not projectiles. GMW states in the target: "One weapon or fifty projectiles".

So, exactly why exactly can the Chain Spell feat be used with GMW which allows one or multiple targets, but not on Magic Missile which allows one or multiple targets?

I think you are stretching in your interpretation here.


Given that, Magic Missile becomes 2 to 3 times more powerful than Maximized Magic Missile at the same level (depending on whether you get a save against secondary chained MMs which is also debatable).

Create Undead became significantly more powerful. (i.e. 18 6th+ level spells for the price of 1 9th level).

Other examples:

Chain Spell Haste as discussed previously also has one more advantage over Mass Haste. Mass Haste has at most a 30 foot diameter. Chained Spell Haste has at most a 60 foot diameter.

Chained Spell Grease could force quite a few creatures to make saves every round or drop their weapon.

Chain Spell Magic Fang (or Greater Magic Fang) could give a small group of Monks an overwhelming advantage against DR. Unlike MW or GMW, it's hard to disarm or sunder Monks.

Chain Spell Blindness can be an entire party killer with an 11th level caster being able to affect up to 12 opponents with one spell. Granted, most of the save DCs are lower than normal, but anyone can roll low.

Ditto for Charm spells. 7th level caster can Charm 8 creatures of any levels with a 4th level spell compared with Mass Charm of limited hit dice as an 8th level spell.

Chain Spell Analyze Dweomer allows you to check a minimum of 18 items (or more) instead of 1.


I think there are reasons why they do not have "Mass" spells en mass in the game.

 

[Caliban]

That is debatable.

I really don't think so.

Magic Missiles specifies within the text "If you shoot multiple missiles, you can have them strike a single creature or multiple creatures."

Additionally, Magic Missiles states in the target: "Up to five creatures".

One is part of the subset of up to five.

Just read the damn feat, OK? If the spell can affect more than one target, then it can't be Chained. It's just that simple.

Earlier in the thread, you mentioned that Greater Magic Weapon could only be used to target individual weapons, not projectiles. GMW states in the target: "One weapon or fifty projectiles".

So, exactly why exactly can the Chain Spell feat be used with GMW which allows one or multiple targets, but not on Magic Missile which allows one or multiple targets?

I think you are stretching in your interpretation here.

Because it either affects a single weapon or it affects 50 arrows. It's the way the target line is defined.

If it coult target one or more weapons, then it couldn't be chained at all.

The way I read the GMW spell it can be cast in one of two forms: You either cast it at a single weapon or a group of arrows.

This is similar to spells like Blindness/Deafness.

If you are casting it on a single weapon (which is your only choice when casting it on a weapon) it can be Chained. If you cast in the form that can affect 50 arrows, it can't.

If you don't agree with that interpretation of the spell (which I agree isn't firmly supported, but makes sense to me), then greater magic weapon can't be Chain spelled either.

Given that, Magic Missile becomes 2 to 3 times more powerful than Maximized Magic Missile at the same level (depending on whether you get a save against secondary chained MMs which is also debatable).

Magic Missile can't be Chained. Period.

Create Undead became significantly more powerful. (i.e. 18 6th+ level spells for the price of 1 9th level).

It is more powerful. About 3 spell levels more powerful. Seems appropriate when you compare the power difference between Haste and Mass Haste.

Other examples:

Chain Spell Haste as discussed previously also has one more advantage over Mass Haste. Mass Haste has at most a 30 foot diameter. Chained Spell Haste has at most a 60 foot diameter.

Very minor benefit, about enough justify the feat.

Chained Spell Grease could force quite a few creatures to make saves every round or drop their weapon.


Chain Spell Magic Fang (or Greater Magic Fang) could give a small group of Monks an overwhelming advantage against DR. Unlike MW or GMW, it's hard to disarm or sunder Monks.

Chain Spell Blindness can be an entire party killer with an 11th level caster being able to affect up to 12 opponents with one spell. Granted, most of the save DCs are lower than normal, but anyone can roll low.

Ditto for Charm spells. 7th level caster can Charm 8 creatures of any levels with a 4th level spell compared with Mass Charm of limited hit dice as an 8th level spell.

Chain Spell Analyze Dweomer allows you to check a minimum of 18 items (or more) instead of 1.


I think there are reasons why they do not have "Mass" spells en mass in the game.

Wah. None of those seem particularly "uber" to me, especially not when compared to multiply Extended or Empowered spells. The feat has to have some benefit, and none of the spells you listed are game breaking.

And a -4 on the Save DC is pretty significant. And saying that "well, anyone can roll low" means that most people can be expected to save, since most people will roll average or higher. The spell will net you a few extra victims, unless your save DC's are insanely high to begin with.

 

[KarinsDad]

Just read the damn feat, OK? If the spell can affect more than one target, then it can't be Chained. It's just that simple.

That is NOT what the feat states. It states:

“You can chain any spell that specifies a single target and has a range greater than touch.”

It does not state “specifies a single target and ONLY a single target”. That is your interpretation of it. If a spell specifies a single target and possibly other targets such as Dispel Magic, an equally VALID interpretation of this sentence is that you can use it when targeting a single target with the spell since the spell CAN do that.

“Any” is just as good interpretation of “specifies a single target” as “only”.

Wah. None of those seem particularly "uber" to me, especially not when compared to multiply Extended or Empowered spells. The feat has to have some benefit, and none of the spells you listed are game breaking.

And a -4 on the Save DC is pretty significant. And saying that "well, anyone can roll low" means that most people can be expected to save, since most people will roll average or higher. The spell will net you a few extra victims, unless your save DC's are insanely high to begin with.

I think Chain Spell Charm and especially Chain Spell Blindness will be VERY uber against the non-spell casters in a group.

Chain Spell Charm is more potent than Mass Charm except for DCs. But, it can be cast 8 levels earlier than Mass Charm and can affects a lot more higher level creatures.

Since the damage from an Empowered spell tends to be less than the total number of hits of even most low hit point party members, failing a single Reflex save is not generally game breaking, even if multiple characters miss a save from an Empowered area effect spell.

But, having half of the team (or enemies for that matter) be blinded with one Chained Spell Blindness IS game breaking. This spell has a minimum DC of 16 (without pumping) against the first target and DC 12 against secondary targets. That means that about 45% of the first target and 25% of each subsequent target (level 11 targets with an average of +3 due to Wisdom and items) for low Will save (i.e. Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue) targets will fail. Most spell casters will not fail, but probably a third of the non-spell casters will fail.

Having a Chained Spell Feebleminded taking out half of your party IS game breaking. And, your arcane spell casters (i.e. bard, sorcerer, wizard) will have the same DC as the first target with this spell (unless the first target is an arcane spell caster in which case the DC is 4 higher.

The reason Blindness and Feeblemind are in the game is that they do not affect multiple characters simultaneously. Sleep and Hypnotism are the only Mass Enchantment type spells in the game below level 5 (TMK) and they have a lot of restrictions, including fellow party members getting you out of quickly with a standard action. Chain Spell Blindness and Feeblemind cannot be broken quickly without magic. Hence, the reason they are single target spells.

All of the Mass Enchantments spells can be quickly busted out of. Mind Fog, Mass Suggestion, Mass Charm, etc. But, Chain Spell Blindness and Chain Spell Feebleminded are permanent without magic.

It doesn’t sound uber to potentially have some significant portion of a party basically long termed disabled to you?

It does to me, if only due to the fact that the core game system does not have mass spells like that.

 

[Caliban]

That is NOT what the feat states. It states:

“You can chain any spell that specifies a single target and has a range greater than touch.”

It does not state “specifies a single target and ONLY a single target”. That is your interpretation of it. If a spell specifies a single target and possibly other targets such as Dispel Magic, an equally VALID interpretation of this sentence is that you can use it when targeting a single target with the spell since the spell CAN do that.

“Any” is just as good interpretation of “specifies a single target” as “only”.

Bull. You just don't like the feat and thus insist on using the most broken interpretation you can think of.

If the spell gives you the option of affecting more than one target, then it doesn't specify a single target, and cannot be chained.

Greater Magic Weapon has an either/or clause. When you are casting it on a weapon you don't have the option of affecting more targets, which is why I think it can be Chained in that instance.

I think Chain Spell Charm and especially Chain Spell Blindness will be VERY uber against the non-spell casters in a group.

I think you need to read those spells again.

Chain Spell Charm is more potent than Mass Charm except for DCs. But, it can be cast 8 levels earlier than Mass Charm and can affects a lot more higher level creatures.

Those DC's are very important, especially when you are dealing with high level creatures. If you ignore the fact that most of them will make the saves against a 1st level charm spell, then it might seem potent. You need to look at the whole picture and not ignore the details you don't like.

I will admit that would be great for dealing with a gang of low-will save creatures without a fight, but that's appropriate for a 4th level spell slot.

But, having half of the team (or enemies for that matter) be blinded with one Chained Spell Blindness IS game breaking. This spell has a minimum DC of 16 (without pumping) against the first target and DC 12 against secondary targets. That means that about 45% of the first target and 25% of each subsequent target (level 11 targets with an average of +3 due to Wisdom and items) for low Will save (i.e. Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue) targets will fail. Most spell casters will not fail, but probably a third of the non-spell casters will fail.

You haven't looked at Blindness lately, have you?

Blindness is a Fort save, not a Will save. Chain blindness is a 5th level spell, and most 9th level fighter types will have +11 or +12 on their Fort saves at that point. They will only fail the secondary saves on a 1 or 2.

Having a Chained Spell Feebleminded taking out half of your party IS game breaking. And, your arcane spell casters (i.e. bard, sorcerer, wizard) will have the same DC as the first target with this spell (unless the first target is an arcane spell caster in which case the DC is 4 higher.

That is potent, but it's also an 8th level spell. By the time you can cast Chained Feeblemind you are casting 8th level spells, and your opponents will have access to things like Mind Blank, which makes you immune to it. Your non-arcane opponents will have decent will saves, and fighter types can still function while feebleminded. (At least enough to beat on you if they think their friends don't like you.) As long as the Cleric or Wizard makes it, they can help the rest of the party recover in short order.

The reason Blindness and Feeblemind are in the game is that they do not affect multiple characters simultaneously.

Glitterdust is the same level as Blindness and blind multiple creatures. It also reveals invisible creatures and has a much lower duration, but it's long enough to have a major impact on a fight. (Blindness and Glitterdust are two of my favorite 2nd level spells.)

Feeblemind just sucks, even in non-Chain form. At least a spellcaster can protect themselves with Mind Blank by the time you can cast the Chained version.

Sleep and Hypnotism are the only Mass Enchantment type spells in the game below level 5 (TMK) and they have a lot of restrictions, including fellow party members getting you out of quickly with a standard action. Chain Spell Blindness and Feeblemind cannot be broken quickly without magic. Hence, the reason they are single target spells.

And by the time you can cast Chain Blindness you will have access to area affect Dispel Magic, or can afford a potion of Remove Blindness/Deafness.

All of the Mass Enchantments spells can be quickly busted out of. Mind Fog, Mass Suggestion, Mass Charm, etc. But, Chain Spell Blindness and Chain Spell Feebleminded are permanent without magic.

And by the time you are high enough level to face them or cast them, you can reasonably expect your opponents to have magic.

It doesn’t sound uber to potentially have some significant portion of a party basically long termed disabled to you?

At the levels where this can happen, it won't be long term. PC's can cast, buy, or create the magic that allows you to recover from these in short order. (Chain Feeblemind is much more of a problem than Chain Blindness, but it's also an 8th level spell.)

It does to me, if only due to the fact that the core game system does not have mass spells like that.

If you don't like it, just don't allow it in your game. I think it can be an effective feat, but only with certain spells. It's not as generally useful as feats like extend, empower, quicken, etc.

 

[Pielorinho]

KD, I think Caliban makes an interesting point (though he's a lot grumpier about his points than he used to be ). If a feat has an ambiguity in its description, and one interpretation of the ambiguity makes the feat balanced, and another interpretation makes it unbalanced, shouldn't you choose the balanced interpretation of the feat?

That is, you've pointed out (successfully, I think) that chained magic missiles are scary as hell. One interpretation of the feat allows MM to be chained; another interpretation doesn't. Even if both interpretations are valid, why would you choose the one that allows MM to be chained?

I do think that the other chained spells you mentioned are scary, but I don't know that they're necessarily scarier than other spells. Compare cloudkill to chained blindness. Cloudkill requires a fort save, minimum DC 17, or take damage (or die) for everyone in the area. Chained blindness requires a fort save, minimum DC 13 (or 9 for some of the people) for a limited number of people in the area. Cloudkill requires new saves each round, but does less damage each round (figuring that being blinded is worse than taking 5 HP damage).

And cloudkill can be combined with haste and Wall of Force to make a deathtrap. I'm not sure what you'd combine chain blindness with to make an almost-certain-death situation.

Daniel

 

[KarinsDad]

I'm not sure what you'd combine chain blindness with to make an almost-certain-death situation.

No, but I was thinking of how to use Chain Shield Other with the psionic ability to turn real damage into subdual damage to effectively double the hit points of an entire party (with the exception of the Cleric/Psion doing it).

But, I didn't have time last night to get out my Psionics Handbook and find out if it is doable.