Monk/PsyWar clarification

[Alchemist]

Note, I did reference chill touch, which is also 'Duration: instanaeous'

So that part is obviously not a mittigating factor

Fair enough.

It is a touch attack that denurates after 'use'. Apparently some people are interpreting that as a single round after being manifested, I dont think there is any real backing.

Except that chill touch very explicitly states "creature or creatures touched" as well as the fact that it may be used more than once. We see neither of these properties in dissolving touch, only a vague statement about denaturing that has no known rules relevance. I don't interpret that statement to mean you can't hold the charge because, afaik, you don't "use" the charge until you touch somebody.

Also, dissolving touch states 'except', so it must be different somehow, who is to say that the only difference is that it works on the weapon? If so they wouldnt need the other words. From the way it looks they both last until discharged but the touch lasts for a round after it is first used while the weapon one is discharged. Who knows why, I cant read the designers minds.

I'm going to assume you meant dissolving weapon, not dissolving touch. The word except could indeed refer to multiple changes to the description, but you're still stuck with only one target. Are we then to assume that you have to focus all of your unarmed attacks on a single target without mentioning that important tidbit in the description? Why would the description be so different from that of chill touch, where they make it very obvious you get more than one bang for your buck? I can't read designers minds either, but I can take an educated guess at what they probably meant when they wrote the rules.

As an aside, todays article at wizards about reading spell descriptions touches on this very topic. Here it talks about: "Descriptive text usually doesn't bother saying what the spell does not do: The list of things a spell can't do is theoretically endless, so the spell description usually doesn't even attempt to do so. Instead, the descriptive text tries to explain what the spell does as succinctly as possible. If you don't find something in a spell's descriptive text, it's a pretty good bet the spell doesn't do it." (emphasis mine) However you feel about the Sage Advice Skip has given out in the past, he is one of the designers that we are second guessing here, essentially telling us that if it isn't spelled out, it probably isn't happening.

If I were to guess how the power would be written to accomodate what is being suggested, I take my cues from a power like Claws of the Vampire. It has a duration and quite explicitly states how it improves your natural (in this case, claw) attack for the duration. And it sure as heck wouldn't be 2nd level.

Edit: Damn you, Dr Awkward! That's what I get for making tea while I composed my response.

 

[Scion]

But it does state that it lasts for one round after use.

Chill touch's extra wording for multiple uses seems to come because it can be used over multiple rounds, for quite some time.

Whereas it seems that dissolving touch is good for a single round.

Interpreting to only work for a single attack is fine, but the extra round it is active seems to indicate that other options are available. Also, as shown earlier it does not look to be overpowered.

So either we have a bit of ambiguity and it only working for a single attack or a bit of ambiguity and it possibly working for a full round of attacks, if the option is desired.

Like I said from the beginning, I have my own ideas for it. Still though, there does seem to be more than one way to read it.

Can anyone think of a time when it would be horribly overpowered?

 

[Alchemist]

But it does state that it lasts for one round after use.

Chill touch's extra wording for multiple uses seems to come because it can be used over multiple rounds, for quite some time.

Whereas it seems that dissolving touch is good for a single round.

I would disagree. Again, as far as I am concerned it explicitly states one target. Why only one target? Because, only one touch. Many touches (one round, 50 rounds, who cares?), many targets. And lo, Chill Touch says just that. Multiple targets.

Interpreting to only work for a single attack is fine, but the extra round it is active seems to indicate that other options are available. Also, as shown earlier it does not look to be overpowered.

So either we have a bit of ambiguity and it only working for a single attack or a bit of ambiguity and it possibly working for a full round of attacks, if the option is desired.

One target. Period. Nowhere in the power does it say anything about losing the benefit of the power if you attack more than one target. What would you say the consequences of attacking multiple opponents with this power in effect would be, considering it has only one target? That's a whole bunch of info they conveniently forgot to give us, and/or a screwed up target entry. The easy, and probably correct answer is that there is no ambiguity beyond talking about some denaturing that has no rule parallels. It's not like a vial of acid continues to burn after you're hit with it.

Like I said from the beginning, I have my own ideas for it. Still though, there does seem to be more than one way to read it.

Can anyone think of a time when it would be horribly overpowered?

Exhalation of the Black Dragon is a 3rd level Psywarrior power that does 3d6 acid to one target on a ranged touch. So a single touch attack for 4d6 as a 2nd level power is pretty reasonable, while multiple touches seems a bit outrageous when looked at what a similar 3rd level power gets you. What other powers would our budding Psywarrior need beyond dissolving Touch? It's just too much for the level of the power.

 

[Scion]

whenever you touch a creature it is the target. The acid lasts for a round. Why should one assume that the acid is there but cannot be used?

The target is whoever you touch at the time. It is only missing a single word. Much like in the description it is missing the discharged, or wording to match that effect.

So missing about one word either way. One could touch the same creature X number of times and it would only be one 'target'. Or they could have simply missed an (s).

exhalation is a very weak power, I am not sure why it does so little damage.

Still, comparing the damage output for chill touch and dissolving touch the second comes up seriously lacking if only allowed for one attack and might be about right the other way.

Just like the dissolving weapon it should either be discharged after a successful strike (as dissolving weapon says but dissolving touch does not) or it should mention in the targets section the option for multiples on a full attack (pretty much by adding an extra word or an extra letter).

Without one of the two ::shrugs:: it is somewhere in between, which is not useful.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

One could touch the same creature X number of times and it would only be one 'target'.

Are you seriously putting this forth as a valid argument, or are you just playing with people now?

Seriously. Do you allow the cleric to make multiple touches when he casts Cure Light Wounds? If it's the same creature, it's only one creature touched, right?

 

[Plane Sailing]

Can anyone think of a time when it would be horribly overpowered?

In combination with the Delay Power metapsionic feat. For 2pp and expenditure of focus you can arrange for the power to manifest automatically in 5r time, allowing you to get in position to unleash a full attack.

A particularly abusive combination if you allowed it for all attacks would be a psywar5/monk15 with improved flurry and the twf chain

primary hand +12/+12/+12/+7/+2 BAB
off hand +12/+7/+2 BAB

(not including theoretical attribute or magical bonuses here obviously).

If all of those hit the monk/psywar using Delayed Dissolving Touch could do an additional 32d6 damage for the expenditure of 5pp. A little too much benefit, methinks!

 

[Scion]

Are you seriously putting this forth as a valid argument, or are you just playing with people now?

Seriously. Do you allow the cleric to make multiple touches when he casts Cure Light Wounds? If it's the same creature, it's only one creature touched, right?

Does your charge from cure light wounds last for a full round? Does it sit there on your hand pulsing until 6 seconds have lapsed after its first use?

No?

Well, I guess it has no bearing then

The acid does last for a full round after initial use. What does it do? Why would we assume that it does nothing?

 

[Scion]

In combination with the Delay Power metapsionic feat. For 2pp and expenditure of focus you can arrange for the power to manifest automatically in 5r time, allowing you to get in position to unleash a full attack.

A particularly abusive combination if you allowed it for all attacks would be a psywar5/monk15 with improved flurry and the twf chain

primary hand +12/+12/+12/+7/+2 BAB
off hand +12/+7/+2 BAB

(not including theoretical attribute or magical bonuses here obviously).

If all of those hit the monk/psywar using Delayed Dissolving Touch could do an additional 32d6 damage for the expenditure of 5pp. A little too much benefit, methinks!

umm.. lets see..
Metapsionic feat: delaypower, focus, 5pp (with his 7 + wisbonus*2.5 pp), knowing he will need it in exactly 5 rounds (this seems pretty much impossible, but whatever), 15 levels of monk for improved flurry, twf, itwf, gtwf and then, if you hit with all of your attacks which is incredibly unlikely as well, this 20th level character can add up to 32d6 acid damage in increments of 4d6 each (for purposes of energy resistance).

Ok, sounds like a severe lack of overpoweredness here. If this is the best that can be done then I can safely say it is not overpowered in the least to let it work on all attacks.

Besides which, the offhand attacks must be made with a monk weapon, so they will not have the acid on them. Now you are reduced to merely 5 attacks with the acid for a max of 20d6 damage at level 20.

No, definately not overpowered in the least.

In fact, the monk above is doing 2d6 per swing instead of 2d10 per swing. Average damage loss of 4 per hit. So he traded in a whole list of abilities all for a potential few extra points of damage when he has just the right setup against creatures who have no acid resistance and he gets to make a full attack on?

Fun option? possibly, could make for a cool character concept with a bit more work.

Overpowered? not even a little.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Does your charge from cure light wounds last for a full round? Does it sit there on your hand pulsing until 6 seconds have lapsed after its first use?

No?

Well, I guess it has no bearing then

Well, I still don't believe it was meant to allow multiple attacks RAW. But you have fairly dubunked my point.

The acid does last for a full round after initial use. What does it do? Why would we assume that it does nothing?

I think this line was meant prevent the munchy PsyWar from using this power to create flasks of acid in his downtime. The acid goes away after 1 round, giving him one round to use the single touch attack he has. If the acid stayed around for longer, it could be dripped into flasks and sold on the open market. Also, the line prevents the power from being manifested long before combat--forcing the PsyWar to expend time in combat to activate it. But the Target line seems proof-enough that the spell wasn't meant to allow multiple touches.

 

[Scion]

You are reading '1 round after use' to mean '1 round after manifested'? It seems to me that 'use' is after touching someone with it, for an overall of 'denatures 1 round after hitting someone with it'.

Is there some other spell/power that uses 'use' in the same fashion to mean 'manifestation'? that is clearer?

Most touch based spells/powers are able to be held until used (chill touch could potentially last for years) after all

Still, I doubt it would be overpowered to let it work for a full attack. It means that you have to give up the attack that comes with the power initially and then wait at least a round to try to get a full attack action, which from the guy above even then wouldnt really do all that much more damage.

Intersting option, I prefer to keep any and all interesting, but not overpowering, options open if at all possible.

The comparison with attacks above has put me on the fence though, I no longer know which way I would rule it, as it is pretty much not overpowered used that way ;/ it would be nicer if it was, then it would be easy to make a ruling.