Monk Revisions

Seriously, tho, the Reach argument is a good one. Monks will never have that ability (without some sort of high cost, anyway). They -can- use ranged weapons, though.

I don't buy the "can't use magical weapons and armor" argument, however... That just means Monks are more party-friendly with good loot, especially with Fighters... And besides, who needs +X armor when you've got a natural bonus that you cannot be caught flat footed in? And lastly, there are just too many other types of magical items out there...
 

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evilbob said:
Seriously, tho, the Reach argument is a good one. Monks will never have that ability (without some sort of high cost, anyway). They -can- use ranged weapons, though.

I don't buy the "can't use magical weapons and armor" argument, however... That just means Monks are more party-friendly with good loot, especially with Fighters... And besides, who needs +X armor when you've got a natural bonus that you cannot be caught flat footed in? And lastly, there are just too many other types of magical items out there...

Again, that wicked AC depends quite a bit on good stats. Good stats can overpower lots of classes.

The monk can use missle weapons - yes - but they don't get their great attack rate.

IceBear
 

As I typed this I see that I am repeating what has already been said, but I'll post it anyway. I love playing a monk, but I always do so knowing that I will not be great in combat.

Evilbob:
Obviously we have very different ideas of what constitutes mid-level, but I think most of this holds true even at high levels. First, let me address defense. Everyone says that monks have a great AC. This is not necessarily true unless they have both an exceptional Wisdom and Dexterity score. To equal a fighter in chain mail with a 13 Dex requires a +6 bonus to AC. That means the monk's Dex and Wis would have to be a minimum of either 16/16 or 18/14. The token bonus to AC given to them by level will never come as fast as AC bonuses from magic armor, so are IMO irrelevant. Monks must rely on magic items for defense. Magic Items that all use "item slots" that could be used for other things. Magic items should add new capabilities to a character, not just catch him up to the rest of the party. But, of course you deal with this by putting your highest scores in Dex and Wis. OK. Problem solved, or at least minimized, right? Wrong. Because now we talk about offense, particularly damage. You just put your best scores into defense, so now your Str modifier is probably only a +1 or +2. That is of course if you either rolled your stats and got real lucky, or you are using a point buy and all your other stats have suffered. Even the wizard does the same damage as you do with his staff at low level. At fourth level, you finally get to 1d8 base damage. Of course, all the fighters have been dealing at least that much base damage since first level. In fact, at 5th level (judging by the starting money chart on p.43 of the DMG) they probably have a +2 equivalent weapon, most likely +1 and +1d6 of some damage type or another. Now you are behind on base damage again. Keep in mind that the DMG does not have anything to augment your fists (other than Str enhancers). Sure there are other books to pull from, but we are talking about revisions to the core books here. So you get a magic kama. Nice. Unfortunately, its base damage is only 1d6, so the benefit of the magic on it is minimal. Eventually, when you can afford it, some of this goes away with better magic. But you will still always be just a little behind the party fighter. Even with the "tons of attacks", I played in a party up to 15th level, and the party fighter always had a much higher average damage per round than the monk. That is assuming that all attacks hit and all rolls were average for the die type. Attack bonus for the monk is always lower than the fighter too, but that becomes less relevant at higher levels in 3e because BAB always goes up, but AC is typically harder to increase, so I won't argue that point. One last thing about offense: Stunning Attack. A great way to give the party rogue a way to outshine you with his sneak attack. Even though you did the "set-up", you never get credit for the kill.

More in keeping with the topic of the thread:
There's one way to fix all of this: multiclass. Unfortunately, the current core rules nerf that. And while most sensible DMs ignore that rule (even every Dragon article about monks seems to), you still run into a few who don't. That rule, which WotC themselves refer to as a "flavor rule only", needs to go away.
The other thing I would like to see is to give the monk the ability to pick and choose class abilities while sacrificing others by making them feats or "talents" (ala d20 Modern) that can be chosen at different levels, with varying prereqs etc. That way they can maybe get some of the useful stuff eariler at the expense of something else.

Ag_Griffon
 

Icebear: I really don't mean to offend anyone, and I really have been listening to everything everyone has said. I still just find these things hard to believe when counterexamples are so abundant. However, like I said before, I don't mean to go on forever... I'm sure many wiser than I have hashed this out earlier in this very forum, and if anyone knows of any good threads...

As for the disease thing, that was just a joke. Sorry if the impertinence bothered you. I did see and understand your point, and I agree that it's not as useful as immunity to poison or some of the other abilities other classes have.
 

Silver Griffon: Now that's what I'm talking about! Thank you!

So, would I be correct in paraphrasing you as saying you feel that the other defensive and misc. abilities can never truly make up for the core offensive loss suffered due to the lack of modifying weapons?

That seems to be the sentiment of many here, and with the arguments pilling up, it's hard to be dissuaded.

(Also, I don't personally count being the "set up" guy a bad thing, since it's supposed to be, "all for one," right guys? ...Guys?)

Edit: Oh, and I forgot to add that: "Yes," I agree with your stated multiclassing drawbacks of the Monk. The upshot / reverse, of course, is that you get 20 levels of Monk... : )
 
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evilbob: You're not offending me. Like I said, I'm cranky :D

I guess I have a pet peeve when someone says rule X/class X/spell X is unbalanced (but I've never actually used it) and then when people have actually used it basically states that it's not as bad as it seems on paper their EXPERIENCES seem to be ignored.

I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but that's why I get a little cranky :)

Anyway, despite what you say that the book evidence seems to counter these people's experiences, Silver Griffon has just posted another example of how it's not true.

You're looking at the individual parts while those who have played monks are looking at the sum of those parts and have found the sum to be less than expected.

IceBear
 
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Well, I certainly don't discount people's experiences, but there's some sort of logical fallacy that results in taking a personal example and extending it to the whole... Technically, even if 20 people posted to this board about how they -felt- a Monk was not unbalanced, or how one time they saw one that wasn't, that doesn't actually prove anything. (Non-random sample, the sample's too small, blah blah. You know, like why Marketing Focus Groups are such good ideas.) What I do have are the facts in the book, and Silver's excellent description of a Monk in later levels in action. But don't despair; the evidence is mounting. Plus, I have the added comfort of knowing that the Monk class was balanced and playtested for hours and hours before being released... Well, ok, so the 3.5e says it will majorly overhaul the Monk... : ) Actually, this brings us back to where we started, which is do you think the Monk will get boosted or nerfed...
 

I understand how seeing it for yourself is really the only way to know for sure, and I wasn't advocating blindly ignoring areas of the rules that you think are questionable because of other people's opinions. It's just that some of these questions are subjective and it just turns the thread into an argument. Best thing to do is take what people say into consideration and then try it for yourself.

I've also been around here long enough to know certain people's tastes. So, I kinda can listen to those people's experiences and know that things would be similar to me.

I guess - don't blindly listen to people, but don't blindly look at the rules in a vacuum either.

IceBear
 


As far as whether the monk will be boosted or nerfed, I hope its more like a boost.
They need more flexibility, too. Not every monk should have the same abilities.
If they are really going to be able to compete with magic weapons and armor, then maybe they should use the same system. For example, at specific levels the monk can infuse his body with power, gaining a +1 enhancement or an equivalent power to either AC or his natural weaponry. Sort of like a living weapon. A monk with +1 flaming fists would be cooool! :D
Or how about +1 shocking burst, ghost touch hands...

Anyway, that sort of thing really belongs in house rules for right now.

Ag_Griffon
 

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