Monks and AC

[Legildur]

I know there is the term 'necro' used for threads resurrected after a lengthy hiatus, but this thread is looking very 'troll-like'. Not so much that it is being provocative, but that repeatably after a couple of days of no activity and you thought the thread was dead, it 'bounces' back up again, ready for more.... It's very much a troll- or regeneration-thread.

 

[eamon]

I guess cause I use the monk as a segway into other classes....I have a monk 8/kensai 9. His STr is 10. Dex is 18-20 and Wis 17.
He is good in a lot of melee and mobile combat. Plus sneaking around and what not. Of course I compensated with the use of Kensai abilities. This character used weapon finesse to get his to hit up, and damage is caused by Con loss and monk unarmed strike damage.

Exactly. If you're making a dex monk, you'll be dependant on making smart choices which include optimizing the unarmed damage (read: improved natural attack, superior unarmed strike, and a monk's belt, depending on level) and dealing "other" damage such as the con damage. Your sneaking ability is probably second to none, and you don't need strength since you've succeeded in making damage dependant on feats, items and special abilites, and to-hit on dex. You won't deal as much damage as others - almost every other character will outshine you there - but you're flexible and have other abilities, including stunning fist and the con-damage shtick, which means that you're still threatening somewhat. It's not very powerful, but it is playing to the monk's strengths; and the kensai is a worthwhile addition since it allows enchanting your fists (although the cost is hefty, since you lose so many high-level monk abilities such as spell resistance).

 

[eamon]

Relative to each other...

IME, Dex monks shine when:

1) There is significant ranged melee and/or facing foes with spells/powers/abilities forcing Ref saves or targeting touch AC, like a Beholder (all of their eye effects are rays, IOW, Ranged Touch attacks).

2) When they get full use of their AoOs and they have to weather a lot of attacks, namely when they are facing a large number of foes, or to a lesser extent, against a foe who has a large number of attacks.

3) Acting as substitutes for or as stealthy muscle support to a Rogue (or similar PC) on an advance/"scouting" mission- they're that much more likely to succeed on a critical Move Silently roll that could mean the difference between a bloodless scouting mission and a trip to the dungeons...or the graveyard.

IME, Str Monks shine when:

1) You must take down or harry a single elusive or "hardened" target, like a heavily armored spellcaster on the back rows or dragon in his lair.

2) the BBEG's mooks & minions are relatively few in number but high in AC & HP- extra AoOs for high Dex make much less of a difference.

3) Books used in a campaign are limited- there are far more feats, etc. that favor a Str based combatant over a Dex one in the Core & Completes. Even special manuvers that Monks should usually use, like Grapples, Trips & Disarms mainly favor a strong combatant.

Several of the Feats that favor Dex builds are in campaign-specific sources (like Serpent Strike from Eberron which makes the Longspear a Monk weapon), sources not widely used (Serpent Fang from Sandstorm) or in "controversial" rulesets that aren't universally allowed (Stand Still from the XPH, or Pole Fighter, Ring the Golden Bell and Unorthodox Flurry from DCv1).

I can agree with everything except the AoO's there, I still believe the strength based monk has the (significant) edge; simply because he'll have more feats, and enough dex (probably at least 16, if not more, around 10th level) to make all AoO's he'll want, and with more damage, esp. when using reach weapons which don't permit the dex-based monk to benefit from his unarmed attack optimizations.

Ironically, if you add Kensai levels to the dex-based monk, but not to the str-based monk, it'll probably be the str-based monk which outshines the dex-based monk in mobility, whereas the kensai's hefty bonuses will make it hard for the str-based monk to keep up in terms of damage (unless his str is truly high, which might be the case around level 17).

 

[eamon]

And in other news, did you know it's ridiculously easy to gain a truly insane jump check with a monk? Like, 100+d20 at level 10? And that this is utterly useless, but nevertheless immensely funny, when you jump over a canyon, and need to end your movement half-way the jump?

 

[Hyperfist]

And the thread lives on...

I guess when it all comes down to it, what do you want the character to do. When it comes to straight up fighting the STR monk is nasty. Especially if you pick feats that bolster the damage capacity.

Dex monk is very flexible. Can use them for a lot of different situations. Almost ninja-esque in a martial arts movie sort of way. And yes Eamon for that Dex build using Kensai classes, having him with the Swift and Silent feat makes for a very nasty sneak attack at full speed.

 

[akbearfoot]

I don't think the Bo9S shadowblade ability should be counted as a possible 'strength' of a dex-monk

That sole feat makes a 1-level dip into swordsage a no-brainer for any dex-based character you'd play.

And also, any strength based monk could also benefit greatly from the very same feat....if his dexterity is a 16+ then a 1 level dip at 3rd level, and takeing the monastic training feat(since he doesent need to take weapon finesse) would get him +3 to damage with his primary weapon. Whereas the dex-based monk whos primary damage comes from reach AoOs does not get the benefit of the damage bonus.

Plus, if you're already taking feats and abilities from the Bo9S (superior unarmed strike, shadowblade) then why not just take all levels of swordsage after a 2 level dip in monk? You'll end up with a character that's far superior to any mainly monkish focused character. Except possibly the psionic-based monk with tashalatora.

Oh yeah and so everybody knows, the Pole Fighter feat was reprinted in the ebberon Secrets of Sarlona book. So it's actually in an official source now. Along with a feat that lets you do stunning blows with your monk weapons.

Since I dont believe the kensei prc allows double enhancment stacking on weapons, I don't think it's worth taking over other levels.

This thread may be a tad necrotic, but it's still interesting to see the monk-haters and the monk-huggers go at it

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I can agree with everything except the AoO's there, I still believe the strength based monk has the (significant) edge; simply because he'll have more feats, and enough dex (probably at least 16, if not more, around 10th level) to make all AoO's he'll want, and with more damage, esp. when using reach weapons which don't permit the dex-based monk to benefit from his unarmed attack optimizations.

1) He'll still have to burn one feat for Combat Reflexes, a feat the Dex monks get more out of.

2) With feats like Stand Still and all the various spells & powers out there, its possible to rack up more AoO opportunities than even an 18 Dex monk can take advantage of. Consider a Dex Monk with the Stomp Psionic power or special ability- he'll knock down a host of opponents in the area of effect, make a move into its heart, and then AoO to his heart's content.

3) While the Dex monk is having fun accumulating the myriad goodies that boost his Str (of which there are many) the Str Monk is going to be accumulating the Monk's Belt and Gloves of Dexterity to boost his Dex. Once both types grab the Belt & Gloves, that's it- no more Dex boosting. Meanwhile, there are a host of other things both can acquire to boost Str.

(BTW- add the Shintao Monk from OA to the short list of classes that can boost Dex with a class feature.)

4) And I'll reiterate- using a reach weapon increases the probability that you'll get to use an AoO simply because the PC threatens a larger area than a PC using unarmed strikes or standard monk weapons. Unfortunately, I don't have the Stats-Fu to calculate that difference in probability- for all I know it could be statistically insignificant, esp. when coupled with a lower overall attack bonus. However, IME, that hasn't proven to be the case.

Oh yeah and so everybody knows, the Pole Fighter feat was reprinted in the ebberon Secrets of Sarlona book. So it's actually in an official source now. Along with a feat that lets you do stunning blows with your monk weapons.

Thanks for the info!

As for the thread necro- a lot of it is my fault. I'm not trying to troll or necro intentionally.

While I often used to post several times a day, the past few months, I only show up maybe 1-2 times a week. It can't be helped right now- sorry!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

For convenience, I started a thread which is a database for Monk build info.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=4097785#post4097785

Note- added Atavist (Monk/Soulknife PrCl) and a few others to PrCl list.

 

[Legildur]

"And stay down!" the profusely sweating club-wielding man says emphatically as he stands over the thread that just doesn't know when to call it quits.

 

[Slaved]

I like Warforged Monks and I also like the Karmic Strike feat for Monks!