Monks and AC

[Hyperfist]

True...about the multiclassing freely. I basically gave up monk progression. But once I got where I needed to...I moved it onward. But still primarily using monk abilities though I am getting new ones.

As for that AoO's...that only comes into play with grand melees. Which I have a habit of jumping into. That and screaming for area effect spells to bombard me. The one's that require reflex saves. hehehee.

But either way..with a dex build...you can focus on one ability score or two instead of 3...Dex and Wis instead of Str, Dex and Wis.

All depends on your flair I guess is what it comes down to it.

 

[Kat']

A Str monk doesn't focus on Dex... that's the whole point. He focuses on 2 abilities, being Str and Wis, and saves the feats (monks are really, really feat-starved).

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Dex Monks are really good as team players. I know I am using a character that is primarily a dex Monk. I am mixing that with 2 levels in occult slayer and a level in swordsage. That basically allowed me to get weapon finesse and shadowhand blade, I think is the feat. Which allowed me to do dex damage.

I agree that a Dex Monk with tactics honed for teamwork in an appropriate party has the potential to work out very well. What is unclear to me is on what basis one might believe this approach is more promising than a Str Monk (or a Wis Monk).

 

[Hyperfist]

I guess with that is..when you enhance Str on a monk, what do you get for the enhancement??

With this you get enhanced to hit and damage, better grapple, and better chance with dealing overruns and bullrushes. (I might not have listed everything) This is all done without using feats.


When you enhance Dex on a Monk what happens?
With the use of two feats you can get the enhanced to hit and damage, improvement to AC and Improvement to Reflex Saves.

Of those items listed bonuses to Reflex Saves and AC improvement is a huge plus.
And that AC helps with Touch AC which is another big bonus.

is there anything else I am missing? (I am sure there is)

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Having a better AC is certainly a plus. But using a Big AC suggests teamwork choices that generally run counter to the Monk's strengths IMHO. All that wonderful mobility and I am going to stand still like a meatshield in front of the Wizard or next to the Fighter?

As for Saving Throw, that could be corrected with those two "bonus" feats the Str Monk gains over the Dex Monk, if that is really a priority for you.

 

[Hyperfist]

Having a better AC is certainly a plus. But using a Big AC suggests teamwork choices that generally run counter to the Monk's strengths IMHO. All that wonderful mobility and I am going to stand still like a meatshield in front of the Wizard or next to the Fighter?

As for Saving Throw, that could be corrected with those two "bonus" feats the Str Monk gains over the Dex Monk, if that is really a priority for you.

Having a large Touch AC allows you to do a lot of things. But it definitely doesn't take away from your mobility. You can be a distraction on a major level and avoid getting hammered in the process. Distracting a Beholder or any other creature with touch attacks from your fighter or wizard.

And yeah...your right about the feats...but the amount you would get is not as much if you focused Dex into it. hmmm....I have an idea.

Make a 10th level str based monk and a 10th level dex based monk. See how well they fare one on one or against a particular creature. Just an idea. But you know what..seeing this. It all depends on our mindset. Some love having a dex based monk based on the things they want their character to. I can see benefits for a Str based monk if you are into grappling or things like that.

Damn I love this forum.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Before we get into char gen which can get very messy depending on books used, for what scenarios do you think the Dex Monk will shine?

 

[Hyperfist]

I guess cause I use the monk as a segway into other classes....I have a monk 8/kensai 9. His STr is 10. Dex is 18-20 and Wis 17.
He is good in a lot of melee and mobile combat. Plus sneaking around and what not. Of course I compensated with the use of Kensai abilities. This character used weapon finesse to get his to hit up, and damage is caused by Con loss and monk unarmed strike damage.



I have another Monk 11/occ sl 2/sword sage 1. He is pretty good in mass combat...and fighting beholders and mages. Creatures that rely on reflex saves or range touch attacks.
Then again, I build with an eye towards damage using feats and abilities more so than ability scores. Though this one I have managed to bolster using weapon finesse and Shadowhand feat.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Before we get into char gen which can get very messy depending on books used, for what scenarios do you think the Dex Monk will shine?

Relative to each other...

IME, Dex monks shine when:

1) There is significant ranged melee and/or facing foes with spells/powers/abilities forcing Ref saves or targeting touch AC, like a Beholder (all of their eye effects are rays, IOW, Ranged Touch attacks).

2) When they get full use of their AoOs and they have to weather a lot of attacks, namely when they are facing a large number of foes, or to a lesser extent, against a foe who has a large number of attacks.

3) Acting as substitutes for or as stealthy muscle support to a Rogue (or similar PC) on an advance/"scouting" mission- they're that much more likely to succeed on a critical Move Silently roll that could mean the difference between a bloodless scouting mission and a trip to the dungeons...or the graveyard.

IME, Str Monks shine when:

1) You must take down or harry a single elusive or "hardened" target, like a heavily armored spellcaster on the back rows or dragon in his lair.

2) the BBEG's mooks & minions are relatively few in number but high in AC & HP- extra AoOs for high Dex make much less of a difference.

3) Books used in a campaign are limited- there are far more feats, etc. that favor a Str based combatant over a Dex one in the Core & Completes. Even special manuvers that Monks should usually use, like Grapples, Trips & Disarms mainly favor a strong combatant.

Several of the Feats that favor Dex builds are in campaign-specific sources (like Serpent Strike from Eberron which makes the Longspear a Monk weapon), sources not widely used (Serpent Fang from Sandstorm) or in "controversial" rulesets that aren't universally allowed (Stand Still from the XPH, or Pole Fighter, Ring the Golden Bell and Unorthodox Flurry from DCv1).

****

Side note: To date, in contrast to the Kensai (and Barbarians and others), I've only found one Base Class- the Sohei in a Ki Frenzy- and one PrCl- the Tatooed Monk- that gives an actual inherent* bonus to Dex instead of a bonus to something vaguely dex related (like Reflex saves). Any others?

* By that I mean the class grants a straight up Dex bonus that is not derived from a Spell, Psionic Power or the like that can be distilled into an item for anyone to use/purchase.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Given that some are discussing building and running some comparisons, I return to this statement for a moment:

In any case, this does not pertain to the monk issue - any number of other classes can become a kensai; the PrC is not specifically for monks.

I did some research, going through a pile of WotC books* as well as Dragon and Hyperconscious (2 3rd party sources I commonly use) in order to look at Monk/Monk-friendly PrCls, and found 23 of note. Those from 3rd party sources are boldfaced w/ source listed.

Sacred Fist
Tattooed Monk (OA & CompWar are essentially the same)
Kensai
Fist of the Forest
Cloud Anchorite
Shadow Sun Ninja
Enlightened Fist
Monk of the Long Death
Disciple of the Word
Shen (Dragon #319 p68)
Monk of the Enabled Hand (DCv1 p68)
Arcanopath Monk (DCv1 p80)
Henshin Mystic
Drunken Master
Fist of Zuoken
Zerth Cenobite
Shintao Monk
Lucid Cenobite (Hyperconcious p140)
Reaping Mauler
Frostrager
Master of Nine
Incarnum Blade
Spinemeld Warrior

Of the 23 PrCls listed, some freely multiclass with Monks, others don't (and the names are NOT indicative). NO class on the list of is limited by having "Monk X lvl."

Of those 23 PrCls, only these:

Henshin Mystic
Drunken Master
Fist of Zuoken
Zerth Cenobite
Shintao Monk
Lucid Cenobite

have access limited by a class-specific requirement common to Monks. All others are open to all other class combinations capable of meeting a BAB, Skill & Feat combination.

1) Of that short list, the Henshin Mystic has access limited by having "Purity of Body," a Monk ability functionally identical to the Paladin's "Divine Health." Theoretically, that means a Paladin could qualify for the class, depending upon your DM.

2) Of that short list, the Drunken Master has access limited by having "Flurry of Blows," an ability the Monk shares with the Sohei (see the OA class' Ki Frenzy ability, which combines a modified Rage with FoB for the PC's favored weapon), and the Battledancer from DCv1.

3) The last 4 on that short list have access limited by having "Still Mind," an ability which, AFAIK, is unique to the Monk, but I do note that there are some classes that have similar abilities due to their Auras etc., so there may be some classes that qualify that I don't know about.

IOW, there are very, very few- if any- PrCls that Monks qualify for that are barred to PCs without Monk levels.

* WotC sources examined included Core + Completes, PHB2, Unearthed Arcana, Tome of Magic, Bo9S, BoED, BoVD, Sandstorm, Frostburn, Savage Species, Planar Handbook, Races of Destiny/Stone/Wild, XPH, Oriental Adventures, Eberon, Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, Player's Guide to Faerun, MoF, and MoI. I freely admit that I don't own every WotC book out there & I didn't go through all the ones I owned- if you know of a PrCl that is exclusive to Monks, please tell me where to look.)