Monks and AC

Well, that's hardly a Monk build... more like a Fighter build with a Monk dip.

While true, it was the best Core + Completes version of the Githzerai I could come up with for Dallas GameDay.

The Githzerai had only 2 levels of Fighter- the rest were Monk and Lucid Cenobite (Monk PrCl) levels.

Quick nit: how did you get 23 AC? I count 22: 10 base +4 dex +6 armor +1 amulet +1 ring. You don't get the wisdom bonus to AC since you're wearing armor.

The Chainmail is +5 AC, with +2 for its Magic, total +7. You're thinking Chain Shirt, which is +4.


So this build has better battlefield control (we can actually push people away), better damage (ok, maybe only when there's a wall around, so ask your party wizard to prepare some battlefield control spells or fly and use the ground as the wall), better to-hit (no Monkey Grip!!!)

Just like your build, the Gameday monk had Power Attack, so could boost damage similarly. With her additional AoOs at her highest base attack bonus- with an additional +4 due to Deft Opportunist- she would increase AoO hit probability to similar levels as the Str Monk...and she'd have more of them.

Her abilities were not dependent upon having walls around- indeed, there were almost no walls to be had in her adventure.

And while I do like Trip builds (I'm playing one right now), they ARE somewhat hampered in that you have to hit your opponents AC then also succeed against their opposed roll, as opposed to merely hit and dish out damage.

In the Gameday version, Monkey Grip was as close as I could get to Powerful Build- neither race with that ability was permitted.
 

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Zelc said:
Well, that's hardly a Monk build... more like a Fighter build with a Monk dip.

As a matter of fact, that build includes no aspect of a typical monk, being unable to move any faster, it does not use the monk's AC bonus, and it does not attack unarmed. I don't see how it's relevant to this discussion - except perhaps to prove that a monk dip isn't necessarily suboptimal, which isn't something I dispute.

This build is even wearing chainmail, meaning it will move at only 20 ft. per round - it's plays almost no differently than a fighter-based build would!

The original point stands, that a (dex-based) monk supports his party less than other fighters since he is unable to deal competitive damage. Even this build, which is much better than a dex-based monk, will suffer from bad damage output; 14 strength relegates his damage to far below that of a plain fighter.
 

Dannyalcatraz said:
While true, it was the best Core + Completes version of the Githzerai I could come up with for Dallas GameDay.

The Githzerai had only 2 levels of Fighter- the rest were Monk and Lucid Cenobite (Monk PrCl) levels.
Well, maybe, but that's still not a Monk build. And while I'm a fan of most parts of Hyperconcious (what was Bruce thinking when he wrote Call Beast of the Id?), let's not delve into the near-infinite space of 3rd party material, shall we?
eamon said:
As a matter of fact, that build includes no aspect of a typical monk, being unable to move any faster, it does not use the monk's AC bonus, and it does not attack unarmed. I don't see how it's relevant to this discussion - except perhaps to prove that a monk dip isn't necessarily suboptimal, which isn't something I dispute.
He said it well :).

Chainmail
Ah, right.

Just like your build, the Gameday monk had Power Attack, so could boost damage similarly. With her additional AoOs at her highest base attack bonus- with an additional +4 due to Deft Opportunist- she would increase AoO hit probability to similar levels as the Str Monk...and she'd have more of them.

Her abilities were not dependent upon having walls around- indeed, there were almost no walls to be had in her adventure.

And while I do like Trip builds (I'm playing one right now), they ARE somewhat hampered in that you have to hit your opponents AC then also succeed against their opposed roll, as opposed to merely hit and dish out damage.

In the Gameday version, Monkey Grip was as close as I could get to Powerful Build- neither race with that ability was permitted.
The main source of damage for the Dungeon Crasher is the bull rushes. Many games often have walls around, Wall of Stone is a common spell for spellcasters to have, and you can always fly above them and use the ground as a wall. Your Monk may have some decent damage (although like I said above, Kensai doesn't stack the way you think it does), but I doubt you can compete with 8d6+3x str + weapon damage on each hit. The added Knockback feature makes this build much better for battlefield control as well.

And for Trips, don't forget you only have to hit their Touch AC. It also helps any meleers in your party by making the enemy a lot easier to hit.
 

EDIT TO ADD: This is actually illegal. As a Kensai 3, your Signature Weapon can only have an enhancement bonus of up to +3

I disagree.
The signature weapon then becomes a magic weapon (if it wasn't already) and gains an enhancement bonus and/or special abilities. His current class level limits the amount of enhancement a kensai can place into his signature weapon (CompWar p51, emphasis mine)

Not the total enhancement the weapon can actually have. Otherwise, a 1st level Kensai couldn't enhance a +1 weapon, which the language of the first sentence above contemplates him doing. The only example in the entire section that discusses a Kensai enhancing a magic weapon uses a Kensai of indeterminate level.


Well, maybe, but that's still not a Monk build.

I consider Monk PrCls every bit as much Monks as the base class. YMMV.


let's not delve into the near-infinite space of 3rd party material, shall we?

and

As a matter of fact, that build includes no aspect of a typical monk, being unable to move any faster, it does not use the monk's AC bonus, and it does not attack unarmed.

(Not that I ever claimed the build was "typical"...)

It can & does attack unarmed...once someone gets past the point of its spear and the AoO that incurs. Not that a monk needs to attack unarmed- they do have proficiency with weapons, after all, which, depending upon the situation (campaign, combat, etc.) may be quite superior to the Monk's unarmed strikes. Questions of Ranged or Reach weapons aside, there are definitely opponents out there you wouldn't want to touch at all, for instance.

The reason the Gameday build didn't use the AC bonus was because I couldn't afford to equip the PC in a way that would allow me to do so AND have the offense I envisioned- had I had the cash, a Monk's Belt would probably have been all the additional "armor" the PC wore. (Since the party had no healer, each PC was responsible for his own health care, and there were other concerns as well.)

Had this been a PC in an actual campaign, the PC would have continued gaining Monk & Kensai levels, eventually casting off the armor in favor of her class abilities and items like Bracers of AC or a Monk's Belt (if she could get her hands on them, of course).

And, like I said, that was a Gameday approximation of the Githzerai monk that actually did use the higher speed & AC bonus. Had the Lucid Cenobite been disallowed for that build, it would have been one of WotC's- the similar Fist of Zuoken or perhaps the Tattooed Monk, Sacred Fist, Kensai or some other Monk PrCl, each of which have their advantages & disadvantages.

BTW...did you notice that the Sample PC given for the Kensai was a Monk/Kensai with a Dex build?

And for Trips, don't forget you only have to hit their Touch AC.

And with a Dex monk as the target, that touch AC is higher than for a Str Monk, and then you have make your opposed roll vs the Str or Dex of the target, whichever is higher. Versus a trip attack, then, Dex does double duty- making your Monk harder to hit while still ensuring he has a good chance of avoiding being tripped if he is hit.
 

In addition, there is also the General Feat Stand Still from the XPH, which allows you to use a successful AoO to make the opponent who triggered the attack lose the rest of his movement if he fails a Reflex save.

In a sense, its kind of like a trip attack- like a trip, it requires a second roll, it does no damage and prevents further advancement by the foe struck. Unlike a trip (executed without ImpTrip), it provokes no AoO itself, nor can it result in a reversal or loss of weapon.

IOW, its a battlefield control feat, and one that gets better the more AoOs you have. The more AoOs you have, the more foes you can stop in their tracks.

(I didn't bring it up before since neither PC I was discussing had actually taken it yet, so it wasn't on their sheets to remind me. It was, however, on their short list, as I was reminded when I looked in my PC development notes.)

http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicFeats.html#stand-still
 

Dannyalcatraz said:
Not the total enhancement the weapon can actually have. Otherwise, a 1st level Kensai couldn't enhance a +1 weapon, which the language of the first sentence above contemplates him doing. The only example in the entire section that discusses a Kensai enhancing a magic weapon uses a Kensai of indeterminate level.
This absolutely cannot be right. For one thing, from the FAQ:
If a kensai (Complete Warrior 49) selects a weapon as his signature weapon, and that weapon already has an enhancement bonus, do the bonuses stack? What if it already has other magical properties?

A weapon’s existing enhancement bonus doesn’t stack with the effect of the kensai’s signature weapon class feature. The weapon bonus appearing on the “Signature Weapons” table on page 50 of Complete Warrior indicates the maximum effective enhancement bonus of the signature weapon. A 5th-level kensai who chooses a +3 keen longsword as his signature weapon could increase the weapon to a +4 keen longsword, but no higher (since his maximum weapon bonus at that level is +5). He’d pay the difference in XP cost between a +4 weapon (the weapon’s existing effective enhancement bonus) and a +5 weapon (the end result), which is 360 XP.
Of course, some don't think the FAQ is authoritative, so I'll also bring in the argument from balance. We're talking about having weapons that should cost far more than your entire WBL, much less compared to a weapon a normal character can afford. With 10 levels of Kensai, you can get a weapon with an enhancement value of +20 before Greater Magic Weapon. That's absolutely ridiculous.

So, your build relies on two extremely generous interpretations of the rules: Hold the Line gives you an extra AoO on the same action somehow, and you don't count an item's existing enhancement bonus to determine what Signature Weapon can add on. And it still probably has only comparable damage output to the Dungeon Crasher Monk.

I consider Monk PrCls every bit as much Monks as the base class. YMMV.
The Kensai doesn't advance any Monk ability (except adding enhancement bonuses to the Unarmed Strike, which isn't really advancing a Monk ability and your build doesn't actually use the Unarmed Strike as the signature weapon). Even though it multiclasses with the Monk, I wouldn't call it a Monk PrC.

It can & does attack unarmed...once someone gets past the point of its spear and the AoO that incurs. Not that a monk needs to attack unarmed- they do have proficiency with weapons, after all, which, depending upon the situation (campaign, combat, etc.) may be quite superior to the Monk's unarmed strikes. Questions of Ranged or Reach weapons aside, there are definitely opponents out there you wouldn't want to touch at all, for instance.

The reason the Gameday build didn't use the AC bonus was because I couldn't afford to equip the PC in a way that would allow me to do so AND have the offense I envisioned- had I had the cash, a Monk's Belt would probably have been all the additional "armor" the PC wore. (Since the party had no healer, each PC was responsible for his own health care, and there were other concerns as well.)

Had this been a PC in an actual campaign, the PC would have continued gaining Monk & Kensai levels, eventually casting off the armor in favor of her class abilities and items like Bracers of AC or a Monk's Belt (if she could get her hands on them, of course).
That doesn't change the fact that your build at level 10 plays nothing like how a normal Monk plays. By your own words:
Monks, in general, are secondary combatants/skirmishers who can be quite effective at taking down spellcasters.
Your build is more of a tank build than a secondary combatant/skirmisher build, and I don't see why it's any better at taking down spellcasters than a comparable tank with a reach weapon.

And, like I said, that was a Gameday approximation of the Githzerai monk that actually did use the higher speed & AC bonus. Had the Lucid Cenobite been disallowed for that build, it would have been one of WotC's- the similar Fist of Zuoken or perhaps the Tattooed Monk, Sacred Fist, Kensai or some other Monk PrCl, each of which have their advantages & disadvantages.
Right, but you're using a non-monk build to approximate a monk build that's only possible with 3rd party material. All the other PrCs you suggested either would result in a significant decrease in power (compare what the Lucid Cenobite gets with what the Fist of Zuoken gets), or isn't really what I'd consider a Monk PrC (Kensai).

BTW...did you notice that the Sample PC given for the Kensai was a Monk/Kensai with a Dex build?
And that proves what?

And with a Dex monk as the target, that touch AC is higher than for a Str Monk, and then you have make your opposed roll vs the Str or Dex of the target, whichever is higher. Versus a trip attack, then, Dex does double duty- making your Monk harder to hit while still ensuring he has a good chance of avoiding being tripped if he is hit.
The point isn't to resist trips, the point is to trip the monsters so they hold nice and still for the melees and don't go off ganking the squishies.

Dannyalcatraz said:
In addition, there is also the General Feat Stand Still from the XPH, which allows you to use a successful AoO to make the opponent who triggered the attack lose the rest of his movement if he fails a Reflex save.
Yes, and its effectiveness depends on the amount of damage you do. The Str Monk build I posted gets 2 AoOs (3 if you meddle with the stats a bit more), which is enough in most encounters.

Honestly, if you want Stand Still on a build that doesn't focus on Unarmed Strikes, Wisdom AC, or fast movement, why are you playing a Monk? Why not a Crusader or Knight or Fighter?
 
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Quick idea for +20 weapon: +1 Composite Longbow of Splitting (+3) Force (+2) Speed (+3) Collision (+2) Flaming (+1) Frost (+1) Shock (+1) Corrosive (+1) Screaming (+1) Psychokinetic (+1) Eager (+1) Exit Wound (+2). After a GMW, that's 1d8+10+5d6+2d4 (average: 37, automatically overcomes DR thanks to Force), +2 on the first round. With at least 16 BAB and Rapid Shot, you get 12 shots per full attack. That's an average of 444 damage on a full attack if they all hit, and 468 if it's on the first round, easily above the 200 damage standard for high damage. Thanks to Exit Wound, you get to attack everyone behind your target too. Oh, I didn't add in the Str bonus...

Broken much?
 

It also makes absolutely no sense for a Kensai to be able to add enhancement bonuses in addition to the weapons normal bonus. Sure, he can use the existing bonuses to avoid paying an XP cost, but the weapon's effective enhancement bonus cannot exceed his class-level, for several reason.

Firstly, there's the reality check based on balance (I mean, seriously). Then there's the FAQ, which should at least be suggestive. Finally, the words "can place" don't imply addition, they just say that it's possible to do so. I can place an entire gallon of milk into a gallon-sized jug of milk. Of course, if the jug is already half full, I can't... A Kensai can place a certain enhancement into his signature weapon - a certain total.

In any case, imagine the situation were reversed. That means that it'd be attractive for a kensai to "lose" his weapon (since improving an already enhanced weapon will be expensive) occaisionally and buy a more buff one, and then further pimp it. That, of course, is completely contrary to the entire class concept.

Furthermore, the actual example of a kensai improving a weapon which is already magical says "if a kensai has a +1 longsword and wants to imbue it with the power to be a +3 longsword," which clearly focuses on the power the kensai is imbuing to become in total, not the increment.

In any case, this does not pertain to the monk issue - any number of other classes can become a kensai; the PrC is not specifically for monks. And your build still doesn't use any of the monk's key features. Sure, it "can" use unarmed attacks, but you've indeed not chosen to make them your signature weapon, and you're a really low level monk, so your unarmed attacks deal virtually no damage - certainly, they can't even come close to your signature weapon.

You still haven't demonstrated a dex-based monk, in other words.
 

I'm not a fan of Dex-based monks, and usually favour Str-based for all the reasons outlined above.

I can see some appeal for the Combat Reflexes focussed approach, but that is situational and still doesn't overcome the all so common problem of overcoming Damage Reduction.

That being said, one of my fellow players is doing quite well with a Dex based Monk (even though he took, against my advice, Deflect Arrows as his 2nd level bonus feat). Mind you, the DM did drop a Monk's Belt in the treasure at one point, and this certainly helps. It also helps that I play a Druid, and so Greater Magic Fang is available most of the time (we are around 15th level). The Monk has an excellent AC, and gets multiple attacks via Greater Flurry that, while not having the outright attack bonus of the barbarian or paladin, seem to stand a fair chance of hitting because of the multiple attacks at the highest BAB. And with reasonable unarmed-strike damage he can certainly contribute quite effectively, let alone his battlefield mobility and saving throws.

I still think that a Str-based monk would perform better in the same campaign, and would have performed better in the earlier to mid-levels.
 

It also makes absolutely no sense for a Kensai to be able to add enhancement bonuses in addition to the weapons normal bonus.

Its explicitly allowed by the class- see the example listed under the chart where it mentions a Kensai enhancing a magical weapon, and the wording "the weapon becomes magical, if it wasn't already" (I'm paraphrasing- I don't have the book in front of me at the moment).

Finally, the words "can place" don't imply addition, they just say that it's possible to do so. I can place an entire gallon of milk into a gallon-sized jug of milk. Of course, if the jug is already half full, I can't...

The limit would remain at +10 overall, no matter the level of the kensai.

In your analogy, you're assuming that a 3rd level kensai can only fill a jug up to 3 gallons. The way I'm interpreting the language, a kensai can fill a milk jug (enhance his signature weapon) up to his level, so long as he does not exceed the game limit- but the limit here is 10 gallons. As long as the weapon he holds in his hand as his signature weapon isn't already enhanced to more than "7 gallons," the 3rd level kensai can freely add up to his level.

IOW, what we're arguing about is the size of the jug. You say its 3gal for the 3rd level Kensai, I say its 10gal.

A Kensai can place a certain enhancement into his signature weapon - a certain total.

Dictated by his level- nothing in the text says he can't add his max level to the weapon.

...it'd be attractive for a kensai to "lose" his weapon (since improving an already enhanced weapon will be expensive) occaisionally and buy a more buff one, and then further pimp it. That, of course, is completely contrary to the entire class concept.

Attractive? I don't think so- that would be dishonorable, contrary to his vows and inherently chaotic, and thus, not seriously contemplated...and as a DM, I'd probably disallow it.

Furthermore, the actual example of a kensai improving a weapon which is already magical says "if a kensai has a +1 longsword and wants to imbue it with the power to be a +3 longsword," which clearly focuses on the power the kensai is imbuing to become in total, not the increment.

As I pointed out, we don't know if the kensai in question is 2nd level or 8th, so we don't know the nature of the limitation.

Perhaps he only has the levels to make it a +3 weapon, perhaps he has more levels and wants to add abilities other than plusses. The class has no way to alter the enhancements to the weapon- once in place, they remain in place, unchangeable. A higher level kensai might choose to enhance a weapon to +3 and no further because he's planning to add a +3 equivalent special ability.

In any case, this does not pertain to the monk issue - any number of other classes can become a kensai; the PrC is not specifically for monks.

True, but it is on the short list of PrCls which Samurai, Paladins and Monks can take and still multiclass- all of the others (AFAIK) that let a monk do so are Monk PrCls- close enough for me.
And your build still doesn't use any of the monk's key features. Sure, it "can" use unarmed attacks, but you've indeed not chosen to make them your signature weapon, and you're a really low level monk, so your unarmed attacks deal virtually no damage - certainly, they can't even come close to your signature weapon.

It can, and in fact, often has to use unarmed attacks if the foes close to within the effective threatened area of the reach weapon because once the monk starts increasing his reach & damage by increasing his size (by whatever means), that area within the polearm's killzone becomes larger, making unarmed combat skill that much more important. And, of course, the unarmed damage goes up as well...

You still haven't demonstrated a dex-based monk, in other words.

Yes I have- I've demonstrated that you don't build them like Str Monks- if you do, they'll pale in comparison every time. Instead of trying to meet force with lesser force, you concentrate on what they do better.

1) Dex monks use ranged weapons more than the Str monk by design. Hitting your foes with something (manufactured weapon, alchemical weapon, etc.) before they close is a good, effective tactic, and could turn the tide of battle.

2) You use a reach weapon to improve the likelyhood of using your AoOs to maximum potential. Without a reach weapon, its entirely likely that most of your AoOs will go unused as foes simply pass you by (but for the one or two who actually engage you) as they prioritize spellcasters and tanks. Most of those potential AoOs you're trying to purchase with a high dex and Combat Reflexes simply won't materialize.

With a reach weapon and the right feat selection- Combat Reflexes, Hold the Line, Stand Still, Deft Opportunist, etc.- the Dex monk maximizes his chances of getting all of his AoOs in and making them useful, stacking up more attacks at his highest BAB than the Str monk will.

Furthermore, by threatening a larger area, you're (potentially) granting more of your allies flanking bonuses.

3) If your monk is stuck in the second rank behind a wall of tanks, using ranged and reach weapons- 2 areas where the dex monk excels- allows you to continue to contribute effectively even though you're not on the front line.

The Githzerai monk used a 3rd party monk PrCl, yes, but in terms of what it granted for the dex build, it was no different than the Fist of Zuoken or the Zerth Cenobite by WotC. All allow the monk to use psionic abilities from the PsyWar list, meaning the monk would have Expansion, letting him go from Medium to Large and eventually to Huge.

The feat selection was nearly identical to the Kensai, with one exception being Pole Fighter (from DCv1) which allows the monk to use a polarm as a monk weapon. Where the Kensai gains damage output from enhancing the weapon, the Githzerai build boosts its output with FoB and the like. But since Pole Fighter is technically a 3rd party feat (despite that "100% Official" text above the magazine's title), some wouldn't want me to post that build here.
 

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