Monks and AC

[Zelc]

Every Planetouched printed in the MMs and Dragon.

Every? Please tell me why the Aasimar or Tiefling would make a good choice for Monks. If they don't, please let me know specifically which Planetouched races you're talking about.

While true, I reiterate that this was a comparison between a Dex Monk and a combatant who, besides having a mainstream Str-warrior build (incl. the Power Attack feat tree), had full BAB, giving him more attacks (barring FoB) and a higher probability of hitting than a Str monk.

And the same could be said of the Githzerai monk who stood alongside his Human Barbarian ally.

There's so many other factors that can go into this. Like I said before, it's tough to generalize from an anecdote. Perhaps one of their builds wasn't as optimized (Great Cleave?). Or perhaps they don't play as tactically as you do.

I'd have to differ on the Great Cleave fighters, personally- especially after watching 2 of them tear down a pair of Half-Dragon T-Rexes in RttToEE (3Ed PHB & splatbooks builds only- meaning they don't get the benefit of the boosted power that tree gets in 3.5) nearly single handedly, and Goodman Games' Wizard Strategy Guide would probably disagree with you on the latter assertion.

1) What did I say about anecdotes again? Even if that example is common, wouldn't Cleave be just as good there?

2) As for Wizards, it's fairly common knowledge that blasting is suboptimal for Wizards in most cases. Save-or-suck spells or battlefield control spells are usually better. For instance, let's say it's level 10 and your party is facing three bruisers. The Wizard could cast Fireball, which deals an average of 35 damage if they fail their reflex saves or 17.5 if they succeed. Or, he could cast Sleet Storm, which will probably remove at least one of them from the fight and give penalties to the other two (namely, being flatfooted, which is pretty painful if there's a Rogue around). Stinking Cloud might be better if you can isolate one of them outside of the cloud, and keep the other two in it (perhaps cast it at a lower CL to shorten the duration?). Or he could cast Glitterdust, a second level spell, and blind (on average) one or two of the enemies.

I rarely build single-classed anything, sorry!

Fine. How well does your Dex Monk hold up to a Bull Rush Str Monk with 6 levels of Fighter for Dungeoncrasher?

It depends upon the particular situation. Typically, its one of the following:

1) Because they've seen their buddies get hacked down trying to get past them- some by the Monk, but also by the allies working with the Monk in formation so that their AoOs following the Monk's triggers someone's Cleave/Great Cleave.

2) They erroneously percieve the Monk as one of the weaker members, and don't realize their mistake until after they've engaged.

3) Space available for combat dictates who they get to fight- there is no path to the weaker members other than through the Monk and Warriors.

They could still have attacked the Warriors, or used some battlefield control effect to isolate you (and the warriors) from the others or just bypass you guys using teleportation/tumbling.

Now I'm curious- how do you figure that? At 2d6, the Greatspear (or the 1d12 Bisento) does more damage than the Monk's IUC (1d10) and the weapon's reach improves the odds that he'll actually get his single AoO. Taking INA boosts his damage to 2d8, but since he threatens a smaller area, he is less likely to actually get to use his AoO at all.

Because you can't use the Greatspear vs. people within 5' of you, and that 2d8 damage gets applied multiple times thanks to Flurry.

 

[eamon]

[...] I reiterate that this was a comparison between a Dex Monk and a combatant who, besides having a mainstream Str-warrior build (incl. the Power Attack feat tree), had full BAB, giving him more attacks (barring FoB) and a higher probability of hitting than a Str monk.
[...]
You mean...Monks are not as good at fighting as warrior classes (those w/full BABs)?!

The comparison I linked to was one of a rather heavily damage optimized dex monk and a warforgetd juggernaught, which has no special damage enhancing abilities, and does not have full bab, and does significantly less damage than a fighter/barbarian, let alone a ToB build.

Your conclusion is exactly what I'm getting at: a monk is not as good as a fighter-type at fighting, by a significant margin. Like previously said, a monk can still be fun to play, but in combat, other characters will help the party more.

I'd have to differ on the Great Cleave fighters, personally- especially after watching 2 of them tear down a pair of Half-Dragon T-Rexes in RttToEE (3Ed PHB & splatbooks builds only- meaning they don't get the benefit of the boosted power that tree gets in 3.5) nearly single handedly, and Goodman Games' Wizard Strategy Guide would probably disagree with you on the latter assertion.

Fighting vs. two creatures means great cleave gives you at most one extra hit in the entire battle - an extra hit that Cleave would have granted as well. Sure, fighters can tear apart low-AC critters, but they don't need (nor benefit heavily from) Great Cleave. Cleave isn't bad, but it's not great either, and Great Cleave is really situational - but we're getting off topic. As to the wizard's AoE spells, similarly, opinions differ on whether it's optimal, and they're certainly not bad, but it's also off topic (and not really relevant, I think).

Now I'm curious- how do you figure that? At 2d6, the Greatspear (or the 1d12 Bisento) does more damage than the Monk's IUC (1d10) and the weapon's reach improves the odds that he'll actually get his single AoO. Taking INA boosts his damage to 2d8, but since he threatens a smaller area, he is less likely to actually get to use his AoO at all.

You can also take a monk's belt and superior unarmed strike (ToB) and boost your damage to 3d8. That's 2d6 vs. 3d8, and when enlarged, 3d6 vs. 4d8. A monk isn't normally proficient with a greatspear. If you want a reach weapon, I'd recommend taking a guisarme and using improved trip. The nonproficiency penalty is hardly relevant for the touch attack, and it meshes well with improved trip: but again, this works better with the strength based monk.

Not only am I not surprised, but I actually predicted that a Dex Monk couldn't do the same damage as an actual warrior:

Which inevitably leads to the question what a monk can do well. How is monk better than a tumbling rogue, say? If it's not the damage you want him for, there's precious little else left. It's playable, but AoO's won't make the difference, and you'd be better off playing to your strengths, rather than getting more hits with a strike that hardly deals damage.

 

[Slaved]

With Karmic Strike a Monk could hit the bad guy back every time and stun them so that they stop attacking!

 

[Zelc]

With Karmic Strike a Monk could hit the bad guy back every time and stun them so that they stop attacking!

That doesn't work. Not only is there a Fort Save, but...

Stunning Fist [General]

Prerequisites
Dex 13, Wis 13, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +8.

Benefit
You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + ½ your character level + your Wis modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally. A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next action). A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC. You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (but see Special), and no more than once per round. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned.

Special
A monk may select Stunning Fist as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. A monk who selects this feat may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to her monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels she has in classes other than monk.

A fighter may select Stunning Fist as one of his fighter bonus feats.

 

[Slaved]

That doesn't work. Not only is there a Fort Save, but...

If they fail the Fortitude Save it works fine!

 

[Darklone]

Don't forget the Comp Warrior feat that allows two Stunning fist attempts per round. Combine with DC raising feats (Ability focus, Ascetic Rogue) and a Wis monk... and you'll do fine.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Please tell me why the Aasimar or Tiefling would make a good choice for Monks.

If you're looking to play a Monk who is proficient in all Martial Weapons (for tactical reasons, RP, PrCl qualification or whatever) but you don't want to fall afoul of the Monk's multiclassing restrictions by dipping into another class, some special abilities & resistances, darkvision, bonuses to stats that matter to a Monk, and an Aasimar's or Tiefling's minimal LA penalty can be an appealing choice.

Fine. How well does your Dex Monk hold up to a Bull Rush Str Monk with 6 levels of Fighter for Dungeoncrasher?

Don't know "Dungeoncrasher," but I'm sure my Ftr/Monk/Kensai with her Greatspear letting her do something like 6d6 + 7 per hit, Reach out to 20' or so, the feats to get in some AoOs, and an extremely high AC (as seen at Dallas Gameday, mentioned above) would aquit herself just fine.

Which inevitably leads to the question what a monk can do well.

Monks, in general, are secondary combatants/skirmishers who can be quite effective at taking down spellcasters.

Because you can't use the Greatspear vs. people within 5' of you, and that 2d8 damage gets applied multiple times thanks to Flurry.

1) There are feats- WotC, Dragon and true 3rd party- that let you use reach weapons against adjacent opponents. (And since we're talking about the Greatspear, we're already outside of the Core 3 books, I have no qualms about including those options as part of the equation.)

2) Again, that's assuming that they actually get within 5' of the Monk.

3) I don't know the status of things published by Dragon in your campaign, but DCv1 has a feat that lets you use a polearm as a monk weapon, including for FoB.

4) FWIW, the DCv1 also has a feat that lets a Monk use his unarmed strike (and everything the Monk can do with it, incl. Stun) at range- and again, while the Str Monk would have the damage/blow advantage, the Dex Monk would have the higher probability of actually landing a blow.

Even if that example is common, wouldn't Cleave be just as good there?

Yes, but had there been just one more...

They could still have attacked the Warriors, or used some battlefield control effect to isolate you (and the warriors) from the others or just bypass you guys using teleportation/tumbling.

Tactical teleportation introduces all kinds of nightmares for the back rows of any party, PC or NPC.

 

[eamon]

Don't know "Dungeoncrasher," but I'm sure my Ftr/Monk/Kensai with her Greatspear letting her do something like 6d6 + 7 per hit, Reach out to 20' or so, the feats to get in some AoOs, and an extremely high AC (as seen at Dallas Gameday, mentioned above) would aquit herself just fine.

Please include builds with these kind of statements. How do you gain such a damage roll? What level are we talking about? what kind of sources? There have been several rebuttals of your suggestions involving real builds within a reasonable comparison framework.

Name a build that can usefully help a party at a reasonable level. For no particular reason, I chose 9th level in my previous example, so that would be simple; but feel free to use a different level (preferrable within 3.5's reasonable range though, which doesn't include level 20, for instance)

I don't use dragon magazine, so a build using it is less convincing than one that doesn't, but I'm not adverse to considering such a build if it's not using obviously broken stuff.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Please include builds with these kind of statements.

I could just say something like "Post your Dungeoncrasher first," but...

The PC I played at Dallas Gameday 2007 (generally) was:

Human Ftr4/Monk2/Kensai3

Stats were point buy (I don't remember how much- ask der_kluge) + standard level advancement bonuses, resulting in- Str 14, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 13, Wis12, Cha 10

All feats were WotC Core + Completes, including Combat Reflexes, Power Att, Cleave, Monkey Grip, Deft Opportunist, and Hold the Line. Standard amount of magic items & equipment as determined by DMG.

Her primary weapon was a Large Greatspear +3, with Kensai derived bonuses to it of Flame, Frost & Shock. Additional damage was added via the Kensai's Power Surge (+8Str, reusable if you keep making your Concentration checks), and if she had time for it, potions of Bull's Str (+4Str), and potions of Enlarge Person (+2 Str, a d6 boost to the spear's damage and increase in reach)- all of which, BTW, stack with each other.

Because of limitations that included not being able to flurry with the polearm (since DCv1 wasn't being used), she wore Mithril Chainmail +2, an Amulet of NatArm +1, and a RoP +1 to boost her AC to 23. She had no Dex boosting items- she couldn't afford a Monk's Belt.

The final foes faced in the adventure (of which I had no prior knowledge) were able to keep their distance from almost all the other melee oriented PCs except her- her ranged weapons, her Reach weapon & size increase let her tag the critters when they were otherwise untouchable, and her AC kept her alive. (Had I thought about it a bit more, I might have equipped her with a Masterwork composite longbow only usable when she fully boosted her strength...)

In contrast, the single-classed Knight, without such advantages, may not have landed more than a single blow in the entire combat (although the player did a damn good job of roleplaying him, so it was all good).

For the record, this build was a variation of the aforementioned PsyWar/Monk/Lucid Cenobite Githzerai build. The main difference between the two builds were race & the PC was in a campaign using the DCv1 & Hyperconscious, so he was able to FoB with his Bisento (Pole Fighter was the only non-WotC feat in the build), and thus eschewed armor to get the full benefit of the Monk/Cenobite class benefits (which included continued progress to AC bonuses & FoB). That build, due to levels in PsyWar, internalized its "go big" potential (Str bonus, incr. base damage & reach) with the psionic power Expansion.

In both cases, I had originally planned to use the Feat Heavy Weapon (Magic of Faerun, lets you wield weapons of alchemical gold or platinum) which would have boosted the Greatspear or Bisento's damage further (either by upping the base damage to d8s or adding an additional d6- I don't recall which offhand), but that book was not used by either DM.

 

[Zelc]

Human Ftr4/Monk2/Kensai3

Well, that's hardly a Monk build... more like a Fighter build with a Monk dip.

Her primary weapon was a Large Greatspear +3, with Kensai derived bonuses to it of Flame, Frost & Shock.

EDIT TO ADD: This is actually illegal. As a Kensai 3, your Signature Weapon can only have an enhancement bonus of up to +3. Your weapon has the equivalent of a +6 bonus. You can't start off with a magical weapon and then ignore its present enhancement bonus when imbuing the Signature Weapon.

So the weapon only contributes 3d6+3 damage.

Stats were point buy (I don't remember how much- ask der_kluge) + standard level advancement bonuses, resulting in- Str 14, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 13, Wis12, Cha 10

she wore Mithril Chainmail +2, an Amulet of NatArm +1, and a RoP +1 to boost her AC to 23.

Quick nit: how did you get 23 AC? I count 22: 10 base +4 dex +6 armor +1 amulet +1 ring. You don't get the wisdom bonus to AC since you're wearing armor.


So, Dungeon Crasher build:

Goliath Fighter 6/Monk 2 (if using UA, the Overwhelming Attack and Passive Way fighting styles are best)

For stats, we'll swap that 18 and 14. We'll end up with 22 Str and 12 Dex, and boost that Dex with a Gloves of Dexterity for 14. If possible, we can grab a permanent item that boosts Str, but we'll assume we can't. If we can switch more stats around, I'd look for a way to grab another +2 to Dex. Probably by dropping Wis or Cha, or maybe even Con since we get a +2 racial bonus to that.

For feats, we'll go with EWP: Spiked Chain, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Knockback, Shock Trooper, Improved Grapple, and Combat Reflexes (We can get Improved Trip or possibly Stand Still instead of Improved Grapple if using UA). We give up the 2nd level and 6th level Fighter feats for Dungeon Crasher.

Whenever we hit someone using an attack with Power Attack attached, we make a Bull Rush with a check of +6 str +4 size +4 feat +2x the amount we Power Attacked for. So probably +16, and up to +28 (we do have Shock Trooper, after all). We can push them back at an angle, and if they hit an ally we get a free trip on them.

If we Bull Rush the enemy into a wall, we deal an extra 8d6 + 18 damage on top of the normal weapon damage we dished out for hitting them in the first place. This can be done multiple times per round.

So this build has better battlefield control (we can actually push people away), better damage (ok, maybe only when there's a wall around, so ask your party wizard to prepare some battlefield control spells or fly and use the ground as the wall), better to-hit (no Monkey Grip!!!) and the same amount of reach. In a pinch, it can also pick up Stand Still to control large creatures it can't Bull Rush or Trip, or Leap Attack to deal tons of damage without a Wall around.


Now, this build does use more sourcebooks than your build did (Dungeonscape for Dungeon Crasher, Races of Stone for Goliath and Knockback). If we want to limit it to Core + Completes, an Improved Trip Str build will still get better battlefield control and similar amounts of damage, especially if we keep the levels the same.

So what's my point? My point is, when you start introducing more complexity like with multiclassing, it becomes extremely tough to compare a Str focus vs. a Dex focus. This build, I'll admit, is really a Fighter build with a 2 level dip in Monk. Which is the same argument I'd make for your Kensai build. If we really want to analyze Str vs. Dex on Monks, we should stick to pure or close-to-pure Monks.