Monks and Mage-Killing

[RangerWickett]

Listen, why don't we just have a Monk 20 vs Wizard 20 deathmatch? We can settle this farily easily, best of 3.

 

[Victim]

Listen, why don't we just have a Monk 20 vs Wizard 20 deathmatch? We can settle this farily easily, best of 3.

Yeah, because that would clearly show natural strengths and weakness of the classes, rather than displaying the consequences of the initial conditions of the fight and a few individuals' skills at builds, metabuilds, and tactics . Perhaps I'm still disillusioned from an old Fighter vs Barbarian matchup: the fighter was a mounted archer, and the barbarian was a gnome who relied almost exlusively on Use Magic Device. Or how about the duel you tried to use to test out that dark elf counterpart to a bladesinger, which was decided entirely by one side's inability to deal with 3.0 darkness effects?

Monks are definitely good at mage killing through grapple, stunning, and Tumble to bypass the wizard's protectors at lower levels. At higher levels, they become rather less effective at that role given the additional tricks available to wizards. However, they also gain far more defense against spellcasters and in general at those levels. They get SR, poison immunity, the saving throw gap continues to widen, etc. They're not immune to magic so a powerful wizard can still take them out, but in a battlefield in which many low power effects are being tossed around liberally, a monk is pretty secure.

Since a monk's offense starts to pick up via Greater Flurry and their ability to afford all the different stat items to take advantage of their MAD at around the same time their mage killing ability drops off, I wouldn't work too much about the Monks.

The problem with sundering or disarming a cleric's holy symbol(s):

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Stunning Fist and to a lesser extent Grapple are always potential threats to a mage. But it is not that Monks are so shockingly more effective at taking down a Wizard than some other class, it is just with the Saves, good mobility, and SR the Wizard may not have a lot great options for doing anything about it.

Spending an action to cast a spell to slow down a Monk for 1 round is a losing proposition, and many normally choice offensive spells for the Wizard may do nothing at all to slow down the Monk.

 

[RangerWickett]

Yeah, because that would clearly show natural strengths and weakness of the classes, rather than displaying the consequences of the initial conditions of the fight and a few individuals' skills at builds, metabuilds, and tactics . Perhaps I'm still disillusioned from an old Fighter vs Barbarian matchup: the fighter was a mounted archer, and the barbarian was a gnome who relied almost exlusively on Use Magic Device. Or how about the duel you tried to use to test out that dark elf counterpart to a bladesinger, which was decided entirely by one side's inability to deal with 3.0 darkness effects?

Heh, I remember that duel. Didn't turn out so well.

I was thinking the characters could be more, um, iconic, for this duel.

 

[empty]

Spell Resistance does not stack. I'm reasonably sure, that these bracers, whatever they are, do not increase existing Spell Resistance... and surely not by 19 points.

In any case... checking the date of a thread is usually a good idea before replying.

Bye
Thanee

DMG page 219 anything can be considred SR. the +19 ones are equal in price to buying a +5 piece of armour. most dM would that they stack because it is a class abilty + a item... not two items or 2 spells. but yes it is one of those things elft to interret... and wizard will whine no... because godly spell resist woudl make him SAD... where as most fighter would think yes because spell pent and greater spell pent leave base class SR working aroudn 1/3 of the time at best.

but even if they dont stack fine ill max my Dex so i go first. sink 200k into greater ring of spell storing time stop... and antoehr 200k into a greater ring of spell storing widen anti magic field. win intitive what 70% of the time unless you dotn want to devolp your INT... cast time stop dimension door to you or move dpenging on my move.
Anti magic field from toehr ring and as soon as we get back to nromal time hit you with a bag of tangle foot/ grapple you (anti amgic field redenrs freedom of movemnt useless)
and no items or buffs affecting your DEX will render that useless even if you pass you must make a double move action to get out of the anti magic field because of the -50% movement speed.

 

[Endur]

Perhaps I'm still disillusioned from an old Fighter vs Barbarian matchup: the fighter was a mounted archer, and the barbarian was a gnome who relied almost exlusively on Use Magic Device.

I still think my Mount could have beaten that darn barbarian gnome, even if his UMD cross-class wand has paralyzed my archer.

 

[Thanee]

DMG page 219 anything can be considred SR. the +19 ones are equal in price to buying a +5 piece of armour. most dM would that they stack because it is a class abilty + a item... not two items or 2 spells. but yes it is one of those things elft to interret...

Well, most DMs I know would follow the rules here.

SPELL RESISTANCE

Spell resistance is the extraordinary ability to avoid being affected by spells. (Some spells also grant spell resistance.)

To affect a creature that has spell resistance, a spellcaster must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) at least equal to the creature’s spell resistance. (The defender’s spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks.) If the caster fails the check, the spell doesn’t affect the creature. The possessor does not have to do anything special to use spell resistance. The creature need not even be aware of the threat for its spell resistance to operate.

Only spells and spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance. Extraordinary and supernatural abilities (including enhancement bonuses on magic weapons) are not. A creature can have some abilities that are subject to spell resistance and some that are not. Even some spells ignore spell resistance; see When Spell Resistance Applies, below.

A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance. Doing so is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Once a creature lowers its resistance, it remains down until the creature’s next turn. At the beginning of the creature’s next turn, the creature’s spell resistance automatically returns unless the creature intentionally keeps it down (also a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity).

A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities.

A creature with spell resistance cannot impart this power to others by touching them or standing in their midst. Only the rarest of creatures and a few magic items have the ability to bestow spell resistance upon another.

Spell resistance does not stack. It overlaps.

Last paragraph.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Victim]

but even if they dont stack fine ill max my Dex so i go first. sink 200k into greater ring of spell storing time stop... and antoehr 200k into a greater ring of spell storing widen anti magic field. win intitive what 70% of the time unless you dotn want to devolp your INT... cast time stop dimension door to you or move dpenging on my move.
Anti magic field from toehr ring and as soon as we get back to nromal time hit you with a bag of tangle foot/ grapple you (anti amgic field redenrs freedom of movemnt useless)
and no items or buffs affecting your DEX will render that useless even if you pass you must make a double move action to get out of the anti magic field because of the -50% movement speed.

In what way does using an AMF from a spell storing item reflect on the monk? Any class can do that. Or you could some strong wizard with Imp Grapple who casts spells himself - the STR and feat advantage make his victory in grapple checks very likely. And he doesn't have to spend 400k.

Just caught this:

The wizard won that battle, without overexerting himself overmuch; I remember the match well, because that wizard - an Enchantment-specialised Red Wizard/Archmage - was my character. And the method of winning was to put a wall of force directly between the then-adjacent Forsaker and her cohort, thus blocking the AMF emanation from the Forsaker's side of the wall (and incidentally, seperating the two for the five or more round the cohort would need to walk around other intervening obstcles on the map)

Wow, that's not how I interpreted the WoF/AMF interaction at all. Sure, a Wall of Force isn't going to supressed by an AMF. But if you don't have Line of Effect because of the AMF, then Wall isn't going up in that in the first place.

Of course, now there's the rule about instantaneous conjurations being unaffected by the field plus the effective Orb attack spells to give a wizard a chance against someone in an AMF.