Monk's Belt help

[Crothian]

It is a badly designed item. Items shouldn't give a varible bonus for a set price. 13k is way to expensive for +1 to AC, so I'd say it is meant to be Wis bonus +1 to AC. I think the best thing though is to just cross it out of the book.

 

[Caliban]

"If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk."

"AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level."


The +1 bonus to AC is not even the first point of the AC bonus mentioned in the Monk class. The Wisdom bonus is.

And I think that is actually two different AC bonuse abilities. One that is based off of Wisdom and one that is based off your monk class level. Similar and related abilities, but different on a game mechanic level.

I think the monks belt is referring to the second bonus, not the first. They just aren't clearly seperated out as different AC bonus abilities. I think it's just a case of unclear writing, and in most cases it doesn't have any effect one way or the other, which is why it hasn't been errata'd or clarified.

You may disagree with that reading of the rules (and I'm sure you do), but that is honestly the way I think it's supposed to work (in spite of your unfounded accusation of dishonesty). I could probably be convinced otherwised, but that is the ruling I'm working with now. And since I think it is unclearly worded (and it obviously is unclear to some people, or the question wouldn't have been asked), I posted with what I believe the intent of the item to be.

Apparently, I'm not alone in this reading of the rules either, as many people have posted with similar rulings. And I do know that this is the way it was ruled in the Living Greyhawk RPGA campaign (the official WOTC sponsored national campaign) when this exact question came up.

So it's hardly a "haphazard" ruling (as you so condescendingly chose to phrase it). By the way, could you work on keeping these insulting little jabs to a minimum when you respond to me? Since I'm trying hard to keep my posts civil, I'd really appreciate it if you would extend me the same courtesy.

Thanks.

 

[KarinsDad]

And I think that is actually two different AC bonuse abilities. One that is based off of Wisdom and one that is based off your monk class level. Similar and related abilities, but different on a game mechanic level.

I think the monks belt is referring to the second bonus, not the first. They just aren't clearly seperated out as different AC bonus abilities.

Actually, the belt does not state AC bonus at all and hence your argument falls apart. There is no choice of one bonus or the other.

It states "AC of a 5th level Monk". Period.

Crystal clear.

No ambiguity. No exceptions.

Ambiguity is only added by ignoring what is written.


What is the "AC of a 5th level Monk"?

1 + Wisdom bonus if he is not wearing armor, using a shield, or under medium or heavy encumbrance.

+ Dexterity bonus

+ magic spell and item bonuses.

Crystal clear according to RAW. If you cannot make the case that the "AC of a 5th level Monk" does not include Wisdom bonus, you cannot make the case that the Monk's Belt does not include Wisdom bonus.

 

[KarinsDad]

It is a badly designed item. Items shouldn't give a varible bonus for a set price.

It does do that, but it also has a pretty heavy restriction at the same time. It indicates that you get the AC if you do not wear armor or use a shield. That's a pretty huge counterbalance.

AC 19 max, 13K, +3 leather armor and +2 shield
AC 16 max, 13K, Monk's Belt and 18 Wis and Owl's Wisdom

The lesser AC one requires an 18 Wisdom and a spell to get 3 less AC.

This does not sound unbalanced.

 

[monboesen]

I think that my main issues with the belt are the variable bonus and that IMC the belt would meld with the animal form. If rings and bracers will change form to fit a bear, surely a belt can too. Or you could simply make a bracer/ring with the same powers.

I'll grant that in games where the belt does meld its less abusable, but I still don't like the variable bonus.

So yes you could get better AC from armor, but that won't be there when wildshaped. You could then by Wild armor but now the advantage shifts to the belt.

+1 Wild hide armor (+5 AC for 16000 gp, max dex bonus +4, +3 armor penalty and reduced speed in either form)

Or monks belt and periapt of wisdom +2 assuming wis 16 (+5 AC for 17000 gp, works against touch attacks, no max dex bonus, armor penalty or speed reduction, +1 DC on spells, +1 Will save, +1 on several skills, +1-2 spells)

 

[Caliban]

Actually, the belt does not state AC bonus at all and hence your argument falls apart. There is no choice of one bonus or the other.

It states "AC of a 5th level Monk". Period.

Crystal clear.

No ambiguity. No exceptions.

Ambiguity is only added by ignoring what is written.

Sorry, but I, and others, disagree. Stating it over and over again doesn't make it true KD.

What is the "AC of a 5th level Monk"?

Well, one possibility is the +1 AC bonus indicated for a 5th level monk on Table 3-10 of the PHB, under the column labeled "AC Bonus". I think the belt is referring to that AC bonus (and that is another reason why I think they are supposed to be two different AC bonus abilities).

You think it is referring to the more general AC bonus. You may very well be right, but I'm going to stick with my ruling until I see something official one way or the other.

Crystal clear according to RAW. If you cannot make the case that the "AC of a 5th level Monk" does not include Wisdom bonus, you cannot make the case that the Monk's Belt does not include Wisdom bonus.

I have made the case. You just choose not to accept that point of view. And I don't think you are being unreasonable in the respect. I just think you are being unreasonably strident when stating your case. You are the one who seems to have a problem when people disagree with you. (And lest you think I'm being a hyprocrite, I have had similar problems dealing with disagreements. I'm trying to do better on that score.)

I don't expect to convince you KD. I'm only responding because you keep singling me out.

But you can't bully me into agreeing with you, no matter how hard you try. I understand your point of view, and I agree that it is a valid way of reading the rules, I just don't agree with it in this case. Why don't we just agree to disagree and leave it at that?

 

[Crothian]

It does do that, but it also has a pretty heavy restriction at the same time. It indicates that you get the AC if you do not wear armor or use a shield. That's a pretty huge counterbalance.

AC 19 max, 13K, +3 leather armor and +2 shield
AC 16 max, 13K, Monk's Belt and 18 Wis and Owl's Wisdom

The lesser AC one requires an 18 Wisdom and a spell to get 3 less AC.

This does not sound unbalanced.

Except that same Monk Belt grows in bonus over time as the wisdom increases. The armor and shield do not. So, when the Wisdom hits 30 the items starts becoming pretty darn good. I also don't like how it helps out some characters more then others based on their attrubute score. Place the armor and any character, it does the exact same thing. The belt on the other hand provides a difference bonus to different people, but at the same price.

 

[monboesen]

Well, sure it can. But, Druids have a hard time getting an Armor (or shield) bonus without wearing armor (or using a shield). Wizards do not.

So does most other classes. I could as easily have suggested a Belt of mighty defense that gives str bonus +1 to AC. Or tough defense, charmed defense... Well you get my point. The question remains is an item giving any stat bonus +1 to AC with the same limitations as the monks belt is fair and rightly priced at about 13k GP. I do not think so.

And if the above is an argument for making items that covers specific (and yes damn it, intentional) class weaknesses I could think of many new items.

Like something that gives a 1/4 bab +1 bonus to will save (in order to alleviate those easily charmed/scared fighters) or +1 hp/level everytime you get acces to a new even arcane spell level (for those sad 1d4 hp wizards).

 

[KarinsDad]

Except that same Monk Belt grows in bonus over time as the wisdom increases. The armor and shield do not. So, when the Wisdom hits 30 the items starts becoming pretty darn good. I also don't like how it helps out some characters more then others based on their attrubute score. Place the armor and any character, it does the exact same thing. The belt on the other hand provides a difference bonus to different people, but at the same price.

Agreed.

And this is unbalanced how?

Druid with +3 Leather Armor and +2 Shield has AC 19 right away at level 6.

Druid with Monk's Belt and 19 Wisdom and Owl's Wisdom spell up has AC versus level of:

AC: lvl
17: 6
18: 8
19: 16

+1 more AC if he adds a Periapt of Wisdom +6 at some point (for another 36000 GP).

So, one Druid could get to AC 19 by level 16 IF he also casts a spell (or AC 20 if he spends another 36000 GP) whereas the other Druid has the better AC of 19 at level 6 through level 15.


I do not see a balance issue here at all.

The variability of the belt is irrelevant to balance when there are other core ways to get more AC for less money.


Also, we are talking AC here. By the time your Wisdom hits 30 and you get +11 AC from the Monk's Belt, you would be high enough level to have +14 AC from +5 leather armor and +5 shield, or even higher with special materials.

Plus, an AC bonus of +11 is not going to make much difference when the monsters and Fighters you meet at high level are +10 to hit for Strength alone (if the Druid has Wisdom 30, the opponent Fighter can have Strength 30).


I do not understand your argument at all. Any Druid who takes a Belt's Monk instead of +3 Leather Armor and a +2 Shield is just going to die faster.

 

[KarinsDad]

What is the "AC of a 5th level Monk"?

Well, one possibility is the +1 AC bonus indicated for a 5th level monk on Table 3-10 of the PHB, under the column labeled "AC Bonus". I think the belt is referring to that AC bonus (and that is another reason why I think they are supposed to be two different AC bonus abilities).

You think it is referring to the more general AC bonus. You may very well be right, but I'm going to stick with my ruling until I see something official one way or the other.

You totally ignored the question. The question was not "What is the AC Bonus of a 5th level Monk?".

The question was: What is the "AC of a 5th level Monk"?

If you are playing a 5th level Monk, what is your AC?

There is no way possible to answer that question and talk ONLY about the bonus from Table 3-10.

If you were playing a 5th level Monk in my campaign and I told you that your AC was only 11 (regardless of all other factors), you would disagree with me.


So, answer the ACTUAL question here. Don't talk about the Monk's Belt. Don't talk about AC bonuses. Talk about AC and just answer the question.


What is the "AC of a 5th level Monk"?

a) 11 plus Dexterity bonus plus magical bonuses

or

b) 11 plus Wisdom bonus plus Dexterity bonus plus magical bonuses


And if you pick answer a), explain how you would tell a player of a 5th level Monk in your campaign how the Wisdom bonus is not applicable because the "AC of a 5th level Monk" does not include the Wisdom bonus.


According to you so far, the "AC of a 5th level Monk" is 11 because only Table 3-10 applies. Dexterity does not apply to this sentence. Magic does not apply to this sentence. Wisdom does not apply to this sentence. For that matter, you might be telling us that wearing other armor does not apply to this sentence.


You are claiming that the words "AC of a 5th level Monk" mean something else like the AC bonus from table 3-10. What do you have to support such an interpretation when the words say AC and not AC bonus?