Monk's Belt help

[Caliban]

This is still mostly irrelevant since most to hits on touch ACs increase by 3 per 4 levels or 1 per 2 levels and this only increases 1 per 8 levels.

I would disagree with that. In practice, ability score increases tend to increase quicker than your formula would indicate (due to stat increasing items, books, and in some cases spells). And you can get other things that increase your touch AC. Heck, I've got an armored melee character who can get his touch AC to 31 without the belt. A wisdom oriented character could get it significantly higher. By itself it's not that bad, but in combination with other options it pushes it over the top.

This discussion is kind of silly. It is balanced to take a level of Monk and gain this, but it is not balanced for an item to give it to you???

Yes, exactly. You have to give up other class abilities, spell progression, BAB, etc. when you take the monk levels. You only have to give up a single item slot for the belt, and it can effectively free up two other item slots (armor and shield). At higher levels (which is where it becomes a problem) the item slots become more valuable than the gold. And at Epic levels, it becomes completely broken, although I don't really put much weight on epic issues, since I don't play at that level.

For most characters it wouldn't be unbalanced (or even worth it), but most broken/overpowered things aren't broken for most characters. They are mainly overpowered for characters who are optimized to take advantage of it. I think it becomes overpowered much more quickly for druids than anyone else though, just because of the wildshape issue.

In my opinion, of course.

 

[Crothian]

Did you actually read my example?

The +3 leather armor and +2 shield guy has MORE AC for the exact same price until 16th level when it becomes the exact same AC (and then only if the Druid with the Monk's Belt casts Owls Wisdom).

And, how EXACTLY does the guy with the Monk's Belt get it without having to craft, find, or buy it?

Of course I did. Armor doesn't increase in bonus as you gain levels. Te Monks belt does. There fore you have to replace your armor if you want it to become better. Not so with the belt. And the belts bonus increases way faster then +1 per 8 levels. In fact that's only if the player has no means of increasing his wisdom except by gaining levels. But there are other ways to increase ones wisdom (right classes, wishes, magical items, templates, etc. So, the Monk belt can easily offer greater protecting then the armor and shield well before 16th level. I don't know why you are stuck on the druid, the Monk Belt is actually useful for other classes as well. I think some of your examples are limiting your arguements since you are creating specific examples that support your stance, but there are other examples that can happen that do not.

 

[maggot]

I think the belt is good for any cleric or druid. If the cleric/druid as has a mage buddy with an extra 1st level slot, he can get a mage armor spell and have armor of WIS+5. Or you could buy bracers of armor. For 77k (monk's belt+bracers+8), the cleric/druid could have WIS+9. At the upper levels, that is probably at least +18 AC or about full-plate +4 and shield +4 which would cost about 34k, but limit movement.

The lack of a shield bonus in this AC means that a cleric could use a wand of shield to get a further +4 to AC. But the cleric would need the magic domain or ranks in use magic device. Continuing the above example, the cleric could have +22 AC, which is better than the best non-epic armor and shield. But it takes a round to set up and can be dispelled.

So is 13k fair? I'm not sure its underpriced.

 

[Sledge]

Belt, Monk?s: This simple rope belt, when wrapped around a character?s waist, confers great ability in unarmed combat. The wearer?s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the belt lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk?s AC bonus.

Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item, righteous might or transformation; Price 13,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.

Yet another item messed up in the conversion to 3.5 The strict reading does state whatever AC a 5th level monk would have. It alternately sucks and rocks, depending on the user, and the attack effects (the actual basis in 3.0) is really just useless. Strangely though the canny defense thing isn't quite so bad as canny defense is limited by class levels. Monk AC bonus unfortunately isn't. This is an item in bad need of houserules.

 

[KarinsDad]

Of course I did. Armor doesn't increase in bonus as you gain levels. Te Monks belt does. There fore you have to replace your armor if you want it to become better. Not so with the belt. And the belts bonus increases way faster then +1 per 8 levels. In fact that's only if the player has no means of increasing his wisdom except by gaining levels. But there are other ways to increase ones wisdom (right classes, wishes, magical items, templates, etc. So, the Monk belt can easily offer greater protecting then the armor and shield well before 16th level. I don't know why you are stuck on the druid, the Monk Belt is actually useful for other classes as well. I think some of your examples are limiting your arguements since you are creating specific examples that support your stance, but there are other examples that can happen that do not.

You are acting as if this cannot already happen in the game with a Monk 1 / Cleric X.

You are acting as if this cannot already happen in the game with Dexterity for Rogues.

And sure, you can increase your Wisdom, just like a Rogue can increase his Dexterity.

But, that it is a lot more pricey to increase your Wisdom (with the exception of lesser Periapts of Wisdom) than it is to get items of Deflection, items of Dodge bonus, items of Natural Armor, etc. Upping ability scores with Wish is COSTLY.


It takes a lot of Wisdom for a Cleric to get past:

+5 Plate +5 Shield = AC 30

25K + 25K = 50K

vs.

+13 Monk's Belt (Wisdom 23 + 6 Periapt of Wisdom +5 Tome of Understanding which is the highest you can get without extremely unusual feats, classes, races, multiple wishes, etc.) +8 Bracers of Armor = AC 31 (the last point of AC does not occur until level 20). To my knowledge, there are no items of Shield spell (or most personal spells for that matter) for boosting this further (that you could not boost armor with as well, you can even boost armor with Dex by making the armor out of special materials).

13K + 36K + 137.5K + 64K = 250.5K

I understand your point that +7 AC for 13K sounds cheap on the surface, but you can get the same +7 AC Half Plate for 600 GP.

Let's do a level comparison:

13K +5 AC level 6 (Wisdom 19, no other items according to wealth chart)
17K +6 AC level 7 (Wisdom 19 + Periapt of Wisdom +2, most of wealth)
17K +7 AC level 8 (Wisdom 20 + Periapt of Wisdom +2)
29K +8 AC level 9 (Wisdom 20 + Periapt of Wisdom +4, most of wealth)
49K +9 AC level 9 (Wisdom 20 + Periapt of Wisdom +6, all of wealth)
49K +10 AC level 16 (Wisdom 22 + Periapt of Wisdom +6)

This Cleric used up most of his wealth on several levels in order to acquire this (as opposed to spending the money more wisely).

<1K +6 AC level 1 (chain mail and large shield, most of wealth)
<1K +9 AC level 2 (half plate and large shield, most of wealth)
<2K +10 AC level 3 (plate and large shield)

Without any magic at all and without spending a large fortune, the Cleric can get the same AC at level 3 as he can with the Monk's Belt at level 16. And any way in which the Cleric can boost his Wisdom up by buying magical items, he could also wear armor and shield and buy different magical items to boost his AC. For example, Bracers of Armor can easily be overcome via magical armor and magical shield and at lower levels besides.

I do not understand your concern here at all.

Most characters that try this strategy will have VERY low ACs for most levels and will have a hard time surviving.

 

[KarinsDad]

Yet another item messed up in the conversion to 3.5 The strict reading does state whatever AC a 5th level monk would have. It alternately sucks and rocks, depending on the user, and the attack effects (the actual basis in 3.0) is really just useless. Strangely though the canny defense thing isn't quite so bad as canny defense is limited by class levels. Monk AC bonus unfortunately isn't. This is an item in bad need of houserules.

Why?

Where is the balance problem?

And as for your statement about Monk Bonus not being limited by class levels, that would limit the bonus to +6 (+1 for level and +5 for Wisdom). If someone is really that concerned about this (and I cannot understand why they would be if you look at the math), you could always house rule this way.

 

[monboesen]

KarinsDad you seem to ignore the "fringe benefits" that comes with maximizing one stat. That high wisdom not only provides AC for the druid, but increases will save, spell DC's, several skills (like listen and spot) and spells per day. Thats not trivial bonuses.

The touch AC thing is huge too. Most of the dangerous undeads and really nasty save or die spells require touch attacks. That halfplate does nothing to improve that.

You also ignore the disadvantage of armor check penalties and restricted movement.

The two last points matters a lot in my games. But I guess it could be something that differs from game to game.

Anyway this is becomming a pointless discussion. I suspect we simply disagree and will keep disagreeing. Thats just the way it is sometimes. I won't comment anymore on this thread.

 

[KarinsDad]

KarinsDad you seem to ignore the "fringe benefits" that comes with maximizing one stat. That high wisdom not only provides AC for the druid, but increases will save, spell DC's, several skills (like listen and spot) and spells per day. Thats not trivial bonuses.

I do not disagree on this. Those are other good fringe benefits. But, I'm looking at the big picture here. Check out the normal AC disadvantage chart I listed below.

And, these relatively minor benefits do not change much. If you have a Periapt of Wisdom and a Monk's Belt, you STILL are going to suck up most of your magical items at low to mid levels just for this.

You will die for other reasons.

The touch AC thing is huge too. Most of the dangerous undeads and really nasty save or die spells require touch attacks. That halfplate does nothing to improve that.

The touch AC thing is a benefit, but it is fairly minor. It's a help, but you will still get touched for save or die effects half of the time at low to mid levels and over half at mid to high levels anyway. Do the math (this is one of the problems here, people form opinions without doing any of the math).

Enemy Cleric tries to touch you at various levels (and most touch spells are held until the touch succeeds, so occasionally this will bump it back a round). With a 12 Str enemy Cleric versus a Cleric of Dex 12 and Wis 18 the chances to hit become for the Monk's Belt and the armor (starting at level 5 , the level before a PC can first afford the Monk's Belt):

05 70% 70%
06 55% 75% (Wisdom 19, no other items according to wealth chart)
07 55% 80% (Wisdom 19 + Periapt of Wisdom +2, most of wealth)
08 55% 85% (Wisdom 20 + Periapt of Wisdom +2)
09 50% 85% (Wisdom 20 + Periapt of Wisdom +4, most of wealth)
10 50% 90% (Wisdom 20 + Periapt of Wisdom +6, all of wealth)

After level 10, it starts going back up again. Granted, this is very very cool. But, it is not game breaking. And, the character had to pretty much suck up all of his wealth to gain this and had to start the game out at first level with an 18 Wis. Pure min-maxing here. Also, if he does not go out and get Periapts of Wisdom, then these numbers will not be as good.

Now, let's look at the same levels for normal AC. Normal AC is used over 90% of the time against attacks, touch AC is used maybe 5% of the time. Here, let's use an enemy Fighter with 14 STR attacking and the Fighter increases his BAB by one each level and his to hit by one every other level due to magic, strength increase, feats, etc.

05 45% 45% (assume Monk's Belt Cleric had same armor as Armor Cleric at this level)
06 80% 55%
07 85% 60%
08 95% 70%
09 95% 75%
10 95% 85%

Do the math. 50% where the spell is still held for next round on a 5% chance of it occurring versus 20% chance 90% of the time.

That's a HUGE drop in AC in order to get the other benefits. This Monk's Belt guy is a walking pin cushion. Even lower level threats are going to hit him a LOT. And, it gets WORSE if he does not min-max Wisdom and attempt to get other AC boosting items (like Periapts of Wisdom, Gloves of Dexterity, etc.).

AND, this is without the Armor Cleric beefing up his AC with a single magical item. If he does that, the chance to hit delta will be even larger.

The Monk's Belt Cleric is taking a HUGE HUGE hit in AC in order to get this. A Cleric having an AC in the 20 to 22 range at level 10 is almost like being a Wizard. He would have to stay out of combat completely.

Also, the fact is that the normal AC is going to protect a character a LOT more than touch AC ever will.

And, all of this assumes that the Monk's Belt Cleric can acquire a lot of other magical items to boost his Wisdom, Dexterity, and AC. Chances are he cannot find just what he is looking for in most campaigns and he shouldn't have the wealth to do so in many campaigns.

You also ignore the disadvantage of armor check penalties and restricted movement.

The two last points matters a lot in my games. But I guess it could be something that differs from game to game.

These are all good points. It is a nice item. It is not a must have item because normal AC will suffer for most classes.

While this character (above) is getting this item(s), he has very few other items. When other PCs have much better normal AC, slightly better saves, slightly better to hits, etc. due to other magical items, this character does not even have a magical weapon and has to cast a spell to acquire it.


How often does touch AC come up in a game? Once per session maybe??? And with 4 or 5 PCs, it will often not be the Cleric who gets touched.

How many skill points per level do most Clerics have? Enough that armor check penalties actually come into play?


Granted, the reduced movement is an issue. The same issue it is for many other melee types (and Clerics are melee types as often as they are spell casters, they are half way between the two ability-wise).

But again, reduced movement occurs in every game and PCs do not often die because of it (sometimes, but rarely).


This combination is probably suicidal for Clerics. It isn't much better for Druids. It's a good item for a Monk. It's lousy for all other classes except it's ok for Sorcerers and Wizards, but they will tend to have Wisdom <= 14 and it is only +3 AC in that case (and 13K is still a big chunk of their magical item wealth).

All in all, I do not think you are looking at the big picture.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I understand your point that +7 AC for 13K sounds cheap on the surface, but you can get the same +7 AC Half Plate for 600 GP.

The problem I have with this fact--as a proof that the Monk's Belt as written isn't a problem--is that the two values stack. The Cleric or Druid can start off with the half-plate, then at around 10th-level pick up the Monk's Belt to add a stat previously unrelated to AC (and also that character's best stat, most likely to be pumped to high-heaven) to AC.

Dexterity doesn't enter into the matter. Everyone gets to add Dex to their AC, and yes some classes gain a benefit from that because they favor Dex. But the Monk's Belt provides non-monks with an extremely affordable (at mid levels), non-baseline AC bonus that skews balance, IMO.

For me to be all right with it, there'd need to be a Brute's Belt that allowed the fighter to gain 1+str to AC, and a Belt of Glory that granted the paladin 1+cha to AC, and a Thinker's Belt that allowed the wizard to add 1+Int to his AC. Each for 13k.

Edit to add: Yes, I did just forget the restriction to monk AC. My point still holds with regards to druids and wizards, though clearly the AC bonus from such a belt wouldn't help fighters and paladins.

 

[KarinsDad]

Edit to add: Yes, I did just forget the restriction to monk AC. My point still holds with regards to druids and wizards, though clearly the AC bonus from such a belt wouldn't help fighters and paladins.

Or most anyone else for that matter.

Druids can wear magical leather armor and use a magical shield and have a higher AC. This trick is fairly costly and dumb for a Druid to do. Druids already have low ACs, making it lower than magical armor is a mistake.

Wizards, Sorcerers, and Bards MIGHT gain +3 AC if they have a Wisdom of 14. Might.

+3 or even +4 AC (a 16 Wis or his Cleric buddy cast Owl's Wisdom on him) for one low AC PC at 10th level is FAR from game breaking and does not skew balance in any way. Most Wizards and Sorcerers might have (generally at best unless AC pumping is the character schtick) an AC of 22 at 10th level (14 Dex, Mage Armor, Shield, +1 Ring of Protection, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor) and that is only after they use up a round casting a Shield spell. They could even get it to AC 28 by casting Cat's Grace, but that is two rounds of AC boosting. Costly in spells and time.

Bumping this up to AC 26 is no big deal when the NPC Enemy Fighter is +16 or more to hit. It's not as if the PC Wizard is not going to avoid combat. So what if he gets hit 55+% of the time instead of 75+% of the time. He's still going to get hit a lot if he goes near combat.