Monk's Belt help

[Crothian]

You are acting as if this cannot already happen in the game with a Monk 1 / Cleric X.

Just becasue it can be done with multi classing does not mean it should be done with magical items. Items cost less then a level. The character does not have to give up anything. Also, the level of monk gives a lot more then the belt does. Comparing magical items with class levels is not useful at all.

I'll try again for the 4th time. I'm not concnerned about the power. I don't like how with character A it can provide a +1 bonus but Character B can get a +11 bonus for the same item. Its should offer the same thing to anyone that wears it. I don't like how it can increase its bonus as the character gains level. It seems to be the only item that can do that, and I don't like it.

I could care less about how it rates as a protection device, that's not my concern here. I've never argued that it was unbalanced in terms of power. I argued that it was unfair. Two characters should get the exact same bonus from an item, and this one does not do that.

 

[Jesus_marley]

I could care less about how it rates as a protection device, that's not my concern here. I've never argued that it was unbalanced in terms of power. I argued that it was unfair. Two characters should get the exact same bonus from an item, and this one does not do that.

But they DO get the exact same bonus. Characters A and B both get the "AC of a 5th level monk". The benefit granted by the item is the same for all non monks who wear it. just as every monk is different, every wearer of the belt will be as well. Not every 5th level monk is identical. Monk A may have a better AC than monk B because "A" had a better roll at character creation. The WIS score of the wearer is irrelevant to whether or not they get the 5th level monk AC.

To take it a step further, should non-paladins also be granted the benefits of using a HA sword? A nonpaladin CAN use it but the benefit is different than if a paladin uses it.

 

[Crothian]

But they DO get the exact same bonus. Characters A and B both get the "AC of a 5th level monk". The benefit granted by the item is the same for all non monks who wear it. just as every monk is different, every wearer of the belt will be as well. Not every 5th level monk is identical. Monk A may have a better AC than monk B because "A" had a better roll at character creation. The WIS score of the wearer is irrelevant to whether or not they get the 5th level monk AC.

To take it a step further, should non-paladins also be granted the benefits of using a HA sword? A nonpaladin CAN use it but the benefit is different than if a paladin uses it.

Monks are differnet, but they are aquiring the abilities through a levels and not through an item. They aren't getting the same bonus. Same bonus would by +4 or +8. They get an ability that has a varible. Its called the same thing, but it is not.

There are items that help out one class more then other. HA Sweord, robe of the arch magic, those priest vestments. THis however, is not one of them. THe Monks belt is not designed for one class, it is usible by any of them. It just doesn't offer them the same bonus.

And if we really want to see how under/over priced the item is. Craft a belt that gives a +1 AC bonus. Do it again for say +6, +11, +15. And compaire that to 13,000 the cost of this belt.

 

[Jesus_marley]

I believe the point where we differ on this is that "AC of a 5th level monk", to me, is the benefit granted by the item. Though it is true that the numerical aspect of that benefit is variable based on wisdom, the benefit for the item as printed is the same for all who wear it.

To you, the numerical aspect of the benefit and how it is variable is what is important. I respectfully disagree with you on this matter.
If the item inadvertently benefits a character more than another because of a high wisdom score, then so be it. Call it the luck of the draw.

 

[maggot]

Let's do a level comparison:

13K +5 AC level 6 (Wisdom 19, no other items according to wealth chart)
17K +6 AC level 7 (Wisdom 19 + Periapt of Wisdom +2, most of wealth)
17K +7 AC level 8 (Wisdom 20 + Periapt of Wisdom +2)
29K +8 AC level 9 (Wisdom 20 + Periapt of Wisdom +4, most of wealth)
49K +9 AC level 9 (Wisdom 20 + Periapt of Wisdom +6, all of wealth)
49K +10 AC level 16 (Wisdom 22 + Periapt of Wisdom +6)

I think you should include bracers of armor in your calculations, because any character not wearing armor will eventually get a pair. Bracers +3 are way cheaper than a Periapt +6.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Whatever. *shrug*

Let's see if that is what you say when you have RAW on your side next time.

KarinsDad, I'm going to assume that my warning on the first page of this thread wasn't crystal clear enough.

If I see another snipe at Caliban in this thread you will be banned for 24 hours.

Caliban, I don't want to see you reply to Karinsdad again in this thread.

I expect that you have both agreed to disagree by this point and there won't be any problems; continuing a spat after a moderator has asked you not to is NOT a good idea.

Thanks for understanding.

Regards

 

[KarinsDad]

I think you should include bracers of armor in your calculations, because any character not wearing armor will eventually get a pair. Bracers +3 are way cheaper than a Periapt +6.

Ok.

13K +5 AC level 6 (Wisdom 19, no other items according to wealth chart)
17K +7 AC level 7 (Wisdom 19 + Bracers of Armor +2, most of wealth)
22K +9 AC level 8 (Wisdom 20 + Bracers of Armor +3, most of wealth)
26K +10 AC level 9 (Wisdom 20 + Periapt of Wisdom +2, Bracers of Armor +3, quite a bit of wealth)
45K +12 AC level 10 (Wisdom 20 + Periapt of Wisdom +4, Bracers of Armor +4, most of wealth)

10th level, AC 22 + Dex. Ok, but not great and he used up almost all of his wealth to get it (assuming he could trade up straight up).

A third level Cleric could have AC 21 (Plate, Shield, +1 Dex) with no magical items.

For 32K, a 10th level Cleric could have +4 Plate and +4 Shield and +1 Dex for AC 29.


My 4th level Psion can get AC 27 is she presses with no magical items. To me, AC 22 + Dex and using up most of your wealth to get there at level 10 is lightweight. And sure, he could probably press it a little more by only getting a Periapt of Wisdom +2 and Bracers of Armor +3 and taking the other 21K and buying some other Dex/Deflection items. But still, that's using an awful lot of your money, just in a vain attempt to get close to AC 25 or so. Still nowhere near the Armor guy.

 

[Nail]

(Coming into this discussion late......)

I play an elvish Clr 14 with above average wealth. As I started reading this thread, I thought: "Gees, I should get me a Monk's Belt!"

Currently my AC is 34 (Mithral Breastplate +5 {29,350gp}, Heavy Mithral Shield +5 {26,170gp}, Gloves of Dex +4 for a Dex 20 {16,0000}, Ring of Deflection +1 {2,000gp}, Amulet of Natural Armor +1 {2,000gp} )...for a cost of 75,520 gp.

My cleric also has a 24 Wis (for a +7 bonus).

As I said, my character is wealthy....but bear with me here.

So I thought: "Hey, I'll drop my armor and shield for the monk's belt, then get bracers of Armor. I'll be set!"

Let's see, trade out the armor and shield, keep everything else, assume I get 100% of the value when I sell it. (That won't happen, BTW.)

So I have 55,520gp to spend...... 13,000gp for the belt, 36,000 for Bracers of Armor +6, bump the Amulet of Natural Armor up to +2 with the extra. Then my Clr 14's AC will be:

(Belt of the Monk and Wis 24 gives a +8 AC {13,000gp}, Bracers of Armior +6 {36,000gp}, Gloves of Dex +4 for a Dex 20 {16,0000}, Ring of Deflection +1 {2,000gp}, Amulet of Natural Armor +2 {2,000gp} )... AC 31 !!!!

Wow, what a great item for my min-maxed Clr 14 to get! He can make his AC worse by 3 points for the same amount of money!

 

[HeavyG]

So I have 55,520gp to spend...... 13,000gp for the belt, 36,000 for Bracers of Armor +6, bump the Amulet of Natural Armor up to +2 with the extra.

Personally, I would buy a pearl of power (level 3) and ask the party wizard to cast Greater Mage Armor with it every morning (armor +6). That saves me 27k for the bracers. With that 27k, I would make the ring of protection +3 (16k) and the amulet of natural armor +3 (10k). With the last 1000 gp, I would buy a couple of scrolls of greater mage armor in case I get my spell dispelled mid-day.

Thus, I would end up with the same AC as before, only most of it would be touch AC. And I can hit people really hard when disarmed (big deal ! ). Also, the next time you get a wisdom increase (24 is not huge at 14th level, so it's bound to happen), your AC goes up for free, whereas your current character is stuck at the maximum bonus he can get for armor and shield.

Of course, it doesn't work for clerics with full plate as their AC is 3 points higher, but then those types of clerics would also gain +10 ft of speed. (They would also lose a point of dex bonus and mithral full plate is way more expensive than mithral breastplate.)

Mmh, it may be slightly overpowered at high levels, but not very much so, I'd say.

It's also very good for clerics with the Magic domain who suffer arcane spell failure when using arcane scrolls and who can get their non-armored AC up through scrolls and wands of mage armor and shield.

 

[Darkness]

Just some math notes 'cause I'm bored.
Do with these what you will. I have no point.

Currently my AC is 34 (Mithral Breastplate +5 {29,350gp}, Heavy Mithral Shield +5 {26,170gp}, Gloves of Dex +4 for a Dex 20 {16,0000}, Ring of Deflection +1 {2,000gp}, Amulet of Natural Armor +1 {2,000gp} )...for a cost of 75,520 gp.

My cleric also has a 24 Wis (for a +7 bonus).

What kind of Wis-boosting item does this 24 score include?

So I have 55,520gp to spend...... 13,000gp for the belt, 36,000 for Bracers of Armor +6, bump the Amulet of Natural Armor up to +2 with the extra. Then my Clr 14's AC will be:

(Belt of the Monk and Wis 24 gives a +8 AC {13,000gp}, Bracers of Armior +6 {36,000gp}, Gloves of Dex +4 for a Dex 20 {16,000}, Ring of Deflection +1 {2,000gp}, Amulet of Natural Armor +2 {8,000gp} )... AC 31 !!!!

10+8+6+5+1+2 = 32 AC

Obviously, an existing character can't just swap out equipment. Still, let's say he can, or he's a new character.
Now, buying bracers +6 instead of increasing the ring is a sub-optimal way to spend your resources. (Bracers +5/ring +2 costs 5,000 gp less than your current plan.) Especially considering the ring increases touch AC while the bracers do not.