Monks, Mage-Killing and SR Improving

[Calico_Jack73]

You are mistaken. Monks lose to Mages (1-on-1) much like everyone else.

They simply lack the means to prevent them from casting, unless you go insane with antimagic field items or somesuch, of course.

Bye
Thanee

I disagree...

Monks have steath skills as class skills. Mages do NOT have the skills to detect them. All a Monk has to do is get the drop on a Mage. If they can get the first attack in and make it a Stunning Blow it is all over. Next attack they can follow up with a grapple and the mage is doomed... no somatic components to spells and they certainly can't handle any material components. If that Monk has a Silence spell placed on him it would also cancel any spells with verbal components. They only way the mage could have a chance is if they had the still spell, silent spell, and eschew materials feats and had them applied to the proper spells. Improved Evasion means that the Monk will never take full damage from a spell that allows a Reflex saving throw... half damage or none at all.

If both characters square off across from each other in an arena then sure... the Mage has a chance of beating the crap out of the Monk. Otherwise, I'd bet on the Monk.

not if the attack doesn't get through the stoneskin.
Mike

Stoneskin doesn't help much against a Grapple attack. Freedom of Movement is the only reliable way. Then again, that would be the Mage preparing for a fight against a Monk. Either character, if prepared, could beat the other when they are not prepared.

 

[mikebr99]

If both characters square off across from each other in an arena then sure... the Mage has a chance of beating the crap out of the Monk. Otherwise, I'd bet on the Monk.

And Abundant Step may help in that regard also... YMMV


Mike

 

[Calico_Jack73]

And Abundant Step may help in that regard also... YMMV


Mike

Pain touch is also a nice little feat for Monks... causes the target to be nauseated. Try casting spells through a mouth full of vomit, Mage-Boy!

 

[mikebr99]

I'd like my 21st-level monk build to be geared towards mage-killing, so that means surviving the myriad of mage spells first, so as to be able to close with the mage and kill him.

You might consider 1 level in Shadowdancer for HiPS... As long as there's shadows near the Mage, Abundant Step, and hide in plain sight right next to him. He'll have know idea where you've gone... until YOU attack.


Mike

 

[Calico_Jack73]

I'd like my 21st-level monk build to be geared towards mage-killing, so that means surviving the myriad of mage spells first, so as to be able to close with the mage and kill him.

Take the Ninja of the Crecent Moon PrC from Sword & Fist. Now your Monk has the ability to Hide in Plain Sight. Max out your stealth abilities and the Wizard will have no idea where you are. I don't have the book in front of me but I believe they can phase through walls and turn gaseous... both good methods of getting that sneak attack in. Oh, did I mention that Ninjas get sneak attack like Rogues? Do a Stunning Attack that does your Unarmed Damage plus Sneak Attack Dice.

Truely a Mage Killer extrodinaire.

Edit: I'll do the math... if you are 21st level and have maxed out hide then you are looking at 24 skill ranks and I'd figure at least an ability mod of +4. Coupled with the Automatic "10" from hiding in plain sight you are looking at a DC 38 for the Mage to see the Ninja when he is standing right in front of him.

 

[Artoomis]

My concern is over spells like Power Word Kill, etc., etc. Monks can get to Mage's quickly and use many attack to stun and kill them, but only if they can survive the magical onslaught long enough. They might have to go through several rounds of activity before they can get to the Mage.

My central questions on improving SR. The Epic Mantle of SR looks good, and would work, but I'd rather use feats to boost it, just like feats can be used to penetrate it.


What's the feat is Savage Species?

 

[Lord_Fergus]

If you are a 20th level monk already how about going Occult Slayer from CW? The only problem would be losing your SR progression but that can be made up for with items.

 

[Psiblade]

High level mages will typically have teleport / dd memed to jump away from a grappler. Their concentration modifiers get impressive fast. However, a monk grappler with the magekiller feat is exactly that. Even so, a 15th level wizzie could easily have a concentration check of +25. The odds of getting that dd / teleport off are still pretty good.

-Psiblade

 

[Thanee]

Monks have steath skills as class skills. Mages do NOT have the skills to detect them. All a Monk has to do is get the drop on a Mage.

And how does he find the mage?

Stealth is fine, of course, but doesn't always help.
Even simple tricks, like Blindsight, should cancel HiPS, as it just protects from being seen.

You need a lot of magical toys to make yourself a mage-killer. And then it's not the monk, but the magic items, that do the work. The monk-part is rather irrelevant, really. Every cleric can do it better (especially survive the magical onslaught).

If they can get the first attack in and make it a Stunning Blow it is all over. Next attack they can follow up with a grapple and the mage is doomed...

Not really.

If that Monk has a Silence spell placed on him it would also cancel any spells with verbal components.

Yes, that would be needed, and of course, wouldn't help, thanks to silent spell Dimension Door / Teleport (every higher level mage has that kind of stuff ready, those that do not, are already dead ) or emergency Contingency.

Improved Evasion means that the Monk will never take full damage from a spell that allows a Reflex saving throw... half damage or none at all.

There are plenty spells the monk has no real chance to avoid.

If both characters square off across from each other in an arena then sure... the Mage has a chance of beating the crap out of the Monk. Otherwise, I'd bet on the Monk.

Only if you give the monk a huge benefit in terms of information, otherwise the mage wins almost always...

Anyways... I just wanted to state, that to be a mage-killer, you need the appropriate equipment (and information).

And if you want to be a real mage-killer, the cleric beats the monk by leagues.

You basically need three things. Get the drop, grapple, antimagic field.
That's a pretty certain way to beat the mage.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pax]

Vow of Poverty Monk(20)/Magekiller(5), I'd take that against any 25th level wizard (with or without PrC's for the wizworm).

If you want, pop over to the Exodus, and try me. I could probably have the monk built within a couple hours of you showing up (taking the VoP strips out most of the time needed to build a character, since you no longer need to go SHOPPING! ^_^)