D&D 5E Monks Suck

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
No, nobody dismisses the "team buff" aspect of Stunning Strike. It very much should be part of the analysis. And it is something which is possible to quantify, if you make some reasonable assumptions about what other PCs will typically do.
I keep seeing people literally make statements that Stunning Strike mostly helps other PCs, as if that somehow makes it less significant.

First level concentration spells are basically "at-will" when they last an hour (from levels 2-4 --- for a warlock that goes up to 8 hours at level 5, and 24 hours at level 9), and you get two of them per short rest.
How on earth are they going to last an hour, though, unless the DM literally just decides they don't want the player to feel like they "wasted" the slot and don't remind them to make concentration saves, or takes it easy on them by not attacking them?



I want the game to be fun and satisfying as much as anyone else. If a player doesn't really care about their character's power level and is mainly there for the RP, fine! If they want to play a monk, fine! Nobody is telling them not to, or criticizing players for wanting to play monks. The argument isn't "monks suck and nobody should play them", the argument is "if you care when your character sucks, better not pick monk". What Treantmonk was advocating for, which is a goal I agree with, is that players who like the flavor of monk shouldn't have to pay such a massive opportunity cost in terms of power level in order to do that.
Starting a conversation with "monks suck" is literally the worst way to accomplish that supposed goal.
You also keep assuming that the counter-argument is about RPing, when it isn't. It's simply that your number crunching doesn't actually represent the reality of playing the game.

My dude, people have play reports with 4 Elements Monks where they are the superstar of a session! That's the worst subclass in the game! It pays 1 more ki per ability than it should and it's abilities don't allow it to use it's main class abilities in the same turn! It's just bad. Objectively bad! And yet people have a great time playing it.

This is what "this isn't 3.5" is about. If you crunch numbers and go "this thing sucks", you're wrong.

Look, his YouTube channel is geared toward optimization -- that's the intended audience, and that's the reason the video exists. And it's there because the monk, uniquely among classes, simply can't be optimized to be even an average power-level character. And that sucks, because lots of people are attracted to the flavor. Why should they have to choose between the flavor they want and carrying their weight mechanically?
Equating optimization to "carrying their weight mechanically" auto-fails your entire argument, and any chance of your position being taken seriously.
 

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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Oddly despite all this 'Monks suck' argument, in a 'white room 30' toe to toe' battle between a 5th level OH Monk and a 5th level Champion GWM Fighter, I'd have my money on the Monk.

Could be an interesting fight. A battlemaster with riposte, trip attack, and menacing attack might stand a chance. An Echo Knight would have a good chance of winning I think. An eldritch knight who casts darkness and shield on himself will be in a good position as that monk will have a lot of trouble ever hitting the fighter's AC if they're both at disadvantage to attack (though the fighter still has a good chance of hitting the monk even with disadvantage). And does the fighter have his warhorse? :)
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Yeah, that, too. As I said above, I don't really care if the monk does 5 or 10 or even 20 percent less damage. In actual play the differences don't stand out as making the class feel worthless. Over the past couple of years there have been several monks in our group, and I don't recall any of the players ever feeling badly about their choice.
Yeah, and tbh, it's more like 5% in most games, if that. We're talking about a class that takes more work to get into the top peak of optimization. In the average game, any difference is smaller than the swing of the dice, and the class features are fun as hell.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Yeah, that, too. As I said above, I don't really care if the monk does 5 or 10 or even 20 percent less damage. In actual play the differences don't stand out as making the class feel worthless. Over the past couple of years there have been several monks in our group, and I don't recall any of the players ever feeling badly about their choice.

I tend to only really worry about 20% or higher damage differences.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
IMO Even the tone you wrote this post in sounds belittling.

Frog, I love yah man. You are literally one of my favorite posters here. But you're probably also in the top 10 posters here who have been disciplined for belittling your fellow posters (sometimes unjustly). You are just one of the last people here should be tone policing others for sounding belittling. I strongly suspect you think he sounds that way (though he does not to me and I think most others) because you're projecting based on how others think YOU sound so often! Maybe give Treantmonk the benefit of the doubt you likely wish others would give you more often, on this one?
 

Esker

Hero
There are basically three components to consider: The impact of a stun (both in granting the party advantage and in denying the monster an action), the likelihood of a stun attempt succeeding, and the number of attempts the monk can make. If we can come to an agreement on how to crunch those numbers, I think that's a fair experiment.

I think that's exactly right.

I will add that, in my belief, Stunning Strike plus base DPR accounts for most of a monk's combat contribution, and if they come up short after taking that into account, I will concede the class is underpowered. I can't speak for anybody else, but that would be enough to convince me.

Yep, I think that's the most reasonable way to look at it.

1. DPR increase to the party from attacking with advantage. The stun lasts until the end of the monk's next turn; a monk making 3 attacks would average 1 attack with advantage on the same turn as the stun, plus 3 attacks on their next turn. Then we have the other PCs; shall we say two PCs using Treantmonk's "warlock with hex" baseline damage and a base 60% chance to hit? (I figure the rest of the party is doing stuff that doesn't involve an attack roll and won't benefit.)

Seems reasonable.

2. The monster's DPR is reduced to zero for the round. We'll need a ratio to convert "monster damage prevented" to an equivalent of "PC damage inflicted." I'm okay with just doing this 1-for-1, but open to suggestions if you think that's not a valid ratio.

I'm not sure if converting damage-prevented to damage inflicted is necessarily the best way to go about it... I think it may be cleaner to go in the other direction, and convert DPR to a scale that measures 'incoming damage prevented', or even just 'excess or reduced monster turns compared to everyone doing a baseline thing'.

Then we have the likelihood of a stun attempt succeeding. For this, I'd go with picking a target CR based on the monk's level (e.g., "monk level plus 2"), then finding the average Con save of monsters with that CR and comparing it to the expected save DC for a monk of that level. I expect that a monk will start with 16 Wisdom and invest in Dexterity first, so the monk's save DCs will be (11 + prof bonus) for most of their career.

I think assuming monk level + 2 is if anything harsh on the monk. Most monsters, outside big arc-capping bosses, are below the party's level, IME.

Finally, number of attempts. The DMG guideline* is ~7 encounters per day, ~2 short rests per day, which means the monk has (level x 3) / 7 ki points per encounter. We should assume the monk will use their ki in the most efficient way; i.e., the only time a monk will ever use ki for something other than Stunning Strike is if that something provides more value to the party than SS. For this calculation, this means we can simply assume all ki is spent on Stunning Strike (no Flurry, no spellcasting, etc.).

In other analyses I've assumed 8 combat rounds per short rest, split between two fights, which I think is fairly reasonable. If we're doing a mid-tier 2 analysis, which I think is probably the level to focus on, it seems fair to suppose that the monk has about 1 ki per turn. I agree that it makes sense to assume that they use those on stun attempts.

Taking all this into account, the monk's "augmented DPR" would be:

Base DPR for a regular attack with Martial Arts
+
(chance to stun) x (DPR equivalent value of successful stun) x (stun attempts per encounter) / (rounds per encounter)

How about, as a first approximation, assuming one stun attempt per round? Likely they would actually bunch them up a bit, toward the first round and when facing high value targets, but since the chance of failing after two attempts is less than twice the chance of failing after one attempt, assuming that they are spread out boosts the number for them to approximate the tactical value of using them intelligently.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
If I had to summarize this thread, I would identify two general groups (with exceptions in both cases, of course):

People with charts and graphs who say monks suck.

People with experience playing monks who say they are fine.

I think most of the people saying monks suck ALSO have experience with monks sucking. Indeed, most of those who say they think monks suck also say they have direct experience of them sucking.
 



Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
If that's the nature of the campaign, then the Monk isn't the only person suffering.

The Warlock, Fighter, and Rogue (with some subclass exceptions) all require short rests to be fully effective. While many Warlocks are built to EB spam, they (like Monks) are very much short-rest dependent.

Warlock, absolutely. Fighter and Rogue? Absolutely not. Both have their primary abilities available at-will all day long. Both are highly effective just hitting things with their weapon (the rogue sneak attacking as they do and usually then hiding with cunning action). The monk without Ki points is not highly effective just hitting things, because their damage is that much lower, as is their AC and hit points relative to the fighter.

Indeed in every campaign of 5e I've played, the Fighter is the one saying "let's press on" when faced with deciding to short rest or not. The rogue, if they're not too banged up, is right behind them. Meanwhile, the warlock is crying in the corner saying, "guys, you just don't understand. Two spell slots. TWO!! If only I had Pearl of Power and maybe a Ring of Spell Storing this wouldn't happen so often!" Meanwhile, the monk is dead in the corner :) (I kid, I kid).
 

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