doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I keep seeing people literally make statements that Stunning Strike mostly helps other PCs, as if that somehow makes it less significant.No, nobody dismisses the "team buff" aspect of Stunning Strike. It very much should be part of the analysis. And it is something which is possible to quantify, if you make some reasonable assumptions about what other PCs will typically do.
How on earth are they going to last an hour, though, unless the DM literally just decides they don't want the player to feel like they "wasted" the slot and don't remind them to make concentration saves, or takes it easy on them by not attacking them?First level concentration spells are basically "at-will" when they last an hour (from levels 2-4 --- for a warlock that goes up to 8 hours at level 5, and 24 hours at level 9), and you get two of them per short rest.
Starting a conversation with "monks suck" is literally the worst way to accomplish that supposed goal.I want the game to be fun and satisfying as much as anyone else. If a player doesn't really care about their character's power level and is mainly there for the RP, fine! If they want to play a monk, fine! Nobody is telling them not to, or criticizing players for wanting to play monks. The argument isn't "monks suck and nobody should play them", the argument is "if you care when your character sucks, better not pick monk". What Treantmonk was advocating for, which is a goal I agree with, is that players who like the flavor of monk shouldn't have to pay such a massive opportunity cost in terms of power level in order to do that.
You also keep assuming that the counter-argument is about RPing, when it isn't. It's simply that your number crunching doesn't actually represent the reality of playing the game.
My dude, people have play reports with 4 Elements Monks where they are the superstar of a session! That's the worst subclass in the game! It pays 1 more ki per ability than it should and it's abilities don't allow it to use it's main class abilities in the same turn! It's just bad. Objectively bad! And yet people have a great time playing it.
This is what "this isn't 3.5" is about. If you crunch numbers and go "this thing sucks", you're wrong.
Equating optimization to "carrying their weight mechanically" auto-fails your entire argument, and any chance of your position being taken seriously.Look, his YouTube channel is geared toward optimization -- that's the intended audience, and that's the reason the video exists. And it's there because the monk, uniquely among classes, simply can't be optimized to be even an average power-level character. And that sucks, because lots of people are attracted to the flavor. Why should they have to choose between the flavor they want and carrying their weight mechanically?