D&D 5E Monks Suck

[Mistwell]

Do you know what else are optional rules?

Multiclassing.
Feats.

So can we stop with the whiteroom theorycrafting already? All the stuff that "assumes" certain optional rules, and then (as you do here) says, "Woah, pardner, those optional rules are different than the optional rules I use!"

Anyway, my point was more simple (and didn't use the pejorative "DM may I" language) - players have different strategies, and some classes fit those better than others.



Well, then re-calibrate it ... for you.

It's fine for the rest of us.

I don't think weapon destruction as an optional rule sees usage nearly as often as multiclassing and feats. Do you?

As for stopping the white room...you've done plenty of it so why are you complaining that others are having fun with it?

 

[Asisreo]

I don't think weapon destruction as an optional rule sees usage nearly as often as multiclassing and feats. Do you?

As for stopping the white room...you've done plenty of it so why are you complaining that others are having fun with it?

Destroying weapons are optional?

Uh, no...

Weapons are objects. Objects can be targeted by attacks. They have AC and HP. They can be destroyed by RAW.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Just remember that if you enjoy playing a monk, you are obviously delusional because spreadsheets never lie.

Guilty confession: I think Champion fighters are fun, too.

 

[Asisreo]

Guilty confession: I think Champion fighters are fun, too.

Can you not see that you're being suppressed? You're character is screwed and your fun is being tainted by the fact that your character is last place in a spreadsheet race.

How do you even function when your teammates are better than you?

 

[Weiley31]

Can you not see that you're being suppressed? You're character is screwed and your fun is being tainted by the fact that your character is last place in a spreadsheet race.

How do you even function when your teammates are better than you?

Insert scene where it's revealed that the entire party is composed of Champions.

 

[Mistwell]

Figuring out what CR distribution to use is really hard to standardize, since that part will vary greatly from table to table. But I just did a quick back-of-the-envelope scan, and if at level 8 you assume that

• 50% of enemies are CR4 (half the party's level)
• 25% are CR8 (equal to the party's level) and
• 25% are CR12 (1.5 times the party's level)
• within each CR band the monsters are sampled uniformly from "non-good-aligned" creatures in the MM and MToF
• you just look at CON save bonuses (ignoring legendary resistances and the like, which are presumably a significant factor for the higher CR enemies, for the sake of a quick back-of-the-envelope)

then for a monk that "splits the difference" and takes +2 DEX and +2 WIS (for a DC 15 save), on average monsters should fail their stun saves about half the time. If that's a reasonable description of the CR distribution you face, then 3-4 stuns per short rest is probably about right.

If your table tends to use fewer, higher CR monsters, the failed save rate will be less, but the value of the stun will be greater. I don't know how those balance out but my gut says that higher value stun is worth more than a higher fail rate.

So... at this level anyway, I'm fine with supposing that stuns work about half the time, unless someone wants to refine my arbitrary CR distribution based on something more concrete.

First, I do not think 50% of your battles are half your level in CR (in my experience your average combat is around your challenge rating), and I don't think you'd be wasting your stuns on those half-level CR battles either. Do you? I mean let's be realistic here, you only get your level in Ki points per short rests and you're not wasting them on the Orc, you're holding them for the battles which count (particularly if many fail), so let's be realistic here and assume it's foes closer to your level in CR and higher that you'd even want to use a stun on.

Here are your average Con scores for Monster Manual creatures by CR for levels 4 to 12. I think you will find, for the realistic situations where you'd even want to try to stun, that it's going to come out to less than 50% chance of working.

Challenge Rating 4 (1,100 XP)
Average Constitution Score 14.79
Deadly Encounter Level 2nd

Challenge Rating 5 (1,800 XP)
Average Constitution Score 17.22
Deadly Encounter Level 3rd

Challenge Rating 6 (2,300 XP)
Average Constitution Score 17.06
Deadly Encounter Level 4th

Challenge Rating 7 (2,900 XP)
Average Constitution Score 16.80
Deadly Encounter Level 4th – 5th

Challenge Rating 8 (3,900 XP)
Average Constitution Score 17.58
Deadly Encounter Level 5th

Challenge Rating 9 (5,000 XP)
Average Constitution Score 20.00
Deadly Encounter Level 5th

Challenge Rating 10 (5,900 XP)
Average Constitution Score 18.50
Deadly Encounter Level 6th

Challenge Rating 11 (7,200 XP)
Average Constitution Score 21.33
Deadly Encounter Level 7th

Challenge Rating 12 (8,400 XP)
Average Constitution Score 16.00*
Deadly Encounter Level 8th

 

[Undrave]

Destroying weapons are optional?

Uh, no...

Weapons are objects. Objects can be targeted by attacks. They have AC and HP. They can be destroyed by RAW.

the AC, HP and resistance of objects are at the mercy of the DM. There's nowhere to turn to tell you 'A Greatsword has AC of X and HP of X, but Resist X to all damage'.

A steel object has a SUGGESTED AC of 19... but the rules don't specify HP. Furthermore, that's for something that 'can't move out of the way', I'm pretty sure if you try to strike someone's weapon they're not gonna stand there letting you move in however you want.

Too much DM variance, and it's a strategy that applies to all characters equally, it's just not useful for any analaysis.

It's also very poor action economy because 'Death is the Best Status Condition'.

This one of the reasons hex should not be a base assumption.

Because it's suboptimal? On the contrary, that's why it's the baseline! It's an easy to put together combo that flows directly from the PHB stuff. Anything better should be, by definition, some degree of optimisation.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

First, I do not think 50% of your battles are half your level in CR (in my experience your average combat is around your challenge rating), and I don't think you'd be wasting your stuns on those half-level CR battles either. Do you? I mean let's be realistic here, you only get your level in Ki points per short rests and you're not wasting them on the Orc, you're holding them for the battles which count (particularly if many fail), so let's be realistic here and assume it's foes closer to your level in CR and higher that you'd even want to use a stun on.

Here are your average Con scores for Monster Manual creatures by CR for levels 4 to 12. I think you will find, for the realistic situations where you'd even want to try to stun, that it's going to come out to less than 50% chance of working.

Challenge Rating 4 (1,100 XP)
Average Constitution Score 14.79
Deadly Encounter Level 2nd

Challenge Rating 5 (1,800 XP)
Average Constitution Score 17.22
Deadly Encounter Level 3rd

Challenge Rating 6 (2,300 XP)
Average Constitution Score 17.06
Deadly Encounter Level 4th

Challenge Rating 7 (2,900 XP)
Average Constitution Score 16.80
Deadly Encounter Level 4th – 5th

Challenge Rating 8 (3,900 XP)
Average Constitution Score 17.58
Deadly Encounter Level 5th

Challenge Rating 9 (5,000 XP)
Average Constitution Score 20.00
Deadly Encounter Level 5th

Challenge Rating 10 (5,900 XP)
Average Constitution Score 18.50
Deadly Encounter Level 6th

Challenge Rating 11 (7,200 XP)
Average Constitution Score 21.33
Deadly Encounter Level 7th

Challenge Rating 12 (8,400 XP)
Average Constitution Score 16.00*
Deadly Encounter Level 8th

Why are you using the average score, though? That doesn’t represent what players are realistically doing, because most aren’t going to try to stun big brute types all that often.

 

[SkidAce]

Because it's suboptimal? On the contrary, that's why it's the baseline! It's an easy to put together combo that flows directly from the PHB stuff. Anything better should be, by definition, some degree of optimisation.

Why wouldn't average sword damage used by a fighter be the baseline?

 

[Undrave]

Why wouldn't average sword damage used by a fighter be the baseline?

Honestly, ask @Treantmonklvl20 for why that specific exemple, but it's a fairly simple combo at least.

Sword and Board or two handed greatsword?