D&D 5E Monks Suck

[doctorbadwolf]

Yeah I almost used exactly that metaphor.

Could also run with a race car metaphor. The rogue is a high performance car with no boost, while the monk doesn't run quite as fast normally, but shoots past with the boost.

But both are really excellently fun.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Could also run with a race car metaphor. The rogue is a high performance car with no boost, while the monk doesn't run quite as fast normally, but shoots past with the boost.

But both are really excellently fun.

Or the rogue is like a plain bagel with cream cheese, and maybe some lox. Whereas the monk is more like a nice sourdough with a crunchy crust, still warm from the oven, and...

Wait...what were we talking about?

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Me: Damage without flurry is not good enough. Ki runs out too fast.
You: Damage without Ki is fine... This contradict just about all other posts from the other math lovers... And Ki will not be used only for damage, stunning strike, patient defense etc...


As long as they have Ki to fuel their Flurry. Once they run out, woupsi...

Monk damage without Ki is dice + attribute bonus, of which they get attacks + bonus action.
That is as good as a dual-wielding Fighter with the style up to level 11, and is better than Warlock at-will damage.

 

[FrogReaver]

Monk damage without Ki is dice + attribute bonus, of which they get attacks + bonus action.
That is as good as a dual-wielding Fighter with the style up to level 11, and is better than Warlock at-will damage.

Even against Greatsword using Paladins and fighters it's basically identical damage from levels 5-10. Divine smite adds about 63 daily damage. Flurry of blows adds about 67.5 daily damage assuming 2 short rests (@60% chance to hit).

The mathematical balance is impressive. The differences in play tend to come from hp, secondary abilities, subclass abilities, greater NOVA capabilities, and the versatility added by spellcasting. For example the Paladins saving throw aura, which no other class gets anything nearly as good nearly as early.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Monks will never be my favorite with their basic flavor but I was thinking about drow monks. Maybe a shadow monk.

I was thinking what about rebel drow who are taught Magics to strengthen the body.

Maybe add in a little warlock or magic initiate. Got the idea from @Sacrosanct in another thread honestly.

for me, playing monks would require a change in flavor.

I was looking at the class and my honest assessment is:

A. I could actually play a monk with different flavor and

B. Out of the box, I do not think they are particularly powerful.

I don’t think those things always need to be at cross purposes. However, were I a new player I imagine I would be somewhat frustrated with a monk in a group of martials.

I really might play a drow monk at some point for something different. Going with a more shadowy magic flavor, Armor of Agathys might be fun to add.

I envision a drow with dark clothes, a short sword on his belt and seething. Who knows...

But one thing I do really like about 5e is the encouragement to make characters with character. I guess in that sense I could make a go off most classes. Again, a strength monk (one level of barbarian) seems like a fun idea. Half orc ftw! However the flavor would have to change. Punches and slams are cool. But for me “Kung fu” orc is not the image for me.

I guess to each their own! But if there is “suck” involved with this class I could embrace it with the right flavor.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Only a race with +2 to dex and +1 to wisdom will be able to have that sweet 17 AC.

(cough)floatingASIs(cough)

 

[Chaosmancer]

Had a thought, while re-reading Stillness of Mind and picturing what the fiction is.

I think it takes an action because the intent is that the monk is "losing their turn" to end the effect early. It is essentially a guaranteed save at the end of their turn, but they keep their movement and bonus action. Which, is incredibly powerful if they can use it. So, how about this for a re-write.

Stillness of Mind
Starting at 7th level, you can use your action to end one effect on yourself that is causing you to be charmed or frightened.

You can use this action even if the charm or fear effect would normally prevent you from taking actions.

This way, the monk can always use this ability, by giving up their main action. Thoughts?

 

[Stalker0]

I will say, that 11+ level is simply not a good space to be debating class balance.... for or against. Statistics have consistently shown that the vast majority of campaigns don't play in these spaces...many dnd players will never see an 11th level class in actual play.

So this means discussions about the "loss of damage at 11th level" or "look how cool diamond soul is" are just not valid points for this debate.

I also feel that 1st level analysis is not the best point either. A lot of classes haven't gotten their "class stuff yet"...and 1st level is often seen as a training level, so I too would leave this out of the analysis. I think levels 2-8 is probably the best region to debate the worth of a class...and 6th to me is the pinnacle...that's when all the classes have generally gotten their "meaty next tier abilities".

I feel like the math has been done a million times, but I am going to use my own quick baseline to get a judgement, as I often look at classes at 5th level for my judgement (the vast majority of my campaigns start at 5th).

So a 5th level Longsword/Board dueling fighter with a +1 sword, and an 18th strength... if I include crits (but no subclass abilities):

does... 14.1 DPR

A monk with 16 wisdom, 18 dex (I assumed put more into dex), with a +1 quarterstaff weapon (so his unarmed attack is not benefiting from the +1 bonus of a magic weapon)

does... 17.48

if I assume the usual 65% hit chance. So the monk is doing 24% more DPR without using KI.

On the defensive side, I assume the Fighter has his full plate and shield at this point (I won't assume magic armor enhancements for either of them just yet. So

Monk: AC 17
Fighter: AC 20

The fighter has 18% more armor class.

Again Quick Summary:

Monk: 17 AC / 17.48 DPR
Fighter: 20 AC / 14.10 DPR

So from my quick math it seems that a Monks has decent offensive but weak defense. So if the monk is alright with moving in and doing good damage...but getting knocked around a lot (or relying on step of the wind to pull out danger)....then from basic math he doesn't seem to be doing that badly.

 

[Helldritch]

@Chaosmancer
??????????????? Monk is fine yet, you want to rewrite some of its abilities... Seems to me that I was right.

@Elfcrusher
Floating ASI???? Not in this edition. Not in my games. Ever. A bad solution in my opinion. I don't want humans with halloween masks. There was a thread for that and you know it does not pass with the majority (at least those who were in the thread).

 

[Chaosmancer]

@Chaosmancer
??????????????? Monk is fine yet, you want to rewrite some of its abilities... Seems to me that I was right.

If you want to use that as a standard, I've literally rewritten abilities for every single class in the entire game. I did a massive sweep about a year ago, rewriting stuff I had seen that I didn't like or altering capstones.

For example, I gave Rogues and Bard the ability to put Expertise in any tool set. And I altered the cleric's level 10 ability. Changed rage progression, altered the fighter capstone and I think I changed something else but I'd have to go check. But, Monks were generally fine, so I never changed them.

This discussion got me rethinking some things I hadn't considered before. Like the fact that many charm effects prevent you from taking actions. I had never gotten a charm effect to stick on a monk (high wisdom generally, plus I don't typically use charms on my players) so it was a niche situation for me.