D&D 5E (2014) Monks Suck

[Helldritch]

How much SAN do you have left?

All of it. The vid was quite nice to watch.

 

[Minigiant]

The issues with the monk is that it's purposeless. It's a collection of feature to represent an idea that has no grounding in the world.

I'm not saying the monk doesn't belong. I'm saying the monk has no "real world" reason for existing.

It's not like the monk is a unarmed unarmored variant of a fighter for lands where arms and armors are banned, restricted, too expensive, or not allowed by the church.

It's not like the monks is a physical variant of the rogue where it is the evolution of the thief-acrobat and the gymnast.

It's not like the monk is the example of the super athlete with several feat of skill that touch into the supernatural.

The monkis just a collection of kung fu powers. And it is as good as the independent kung fu powers were made.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

A guy that normally plays barbarians in the one game I'm playing in is trying out a monk and has gotten into trouble because he keeps trying to tank on a class that's built as a skirmisher. It seems like a lot of people fall into that trap.

"When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like ... SHOOT IT WITH ELDRITCH BLAST!"
-This guy who likes playing Warlocks, probably.

Fundamentally, the issue with the Monk is, to paraphrase the late, great, Steve Jobs ... the people who don't like it are holding it wrong. Simply put, monks don't play like other classes.

They have the following issues which make them really stand out:

1. They are one of the "short rest" classes. So there are many people that complain about ki, when really the issue is the table's use of short rests.

2. They don't have spells (not entirely true, given a certain kludge-y subclass, but true enough). There are a lot of players that need the crutch of spellcasting; there's a name for those people, and that name is Bard-lover.

3. They don't fit the typical archetype of the non-spellcasters. They aren't skillmonkey/glass cannon rogues, and they aren't FIGHTY McFIGHTFACE, and they aren't Conan Sir Tanksalot.

So what you have is a class that is sui generis. It isn't like any of the other classes, and it doesn't fit into any neat category. A lot of the abilities don't easily "math out" for optimization purposes- like being able to avoid falling damage, or spells, or missile weapons, or the crazy mobility that they have. Some high-level abilities are just insanely good, but rarely taked about (proficiency bonus on ALL ABILITIES?).

There's just a lot of weird buttons to push, and most people aren't used to pushing them. It's not a class for everyone, but for some people, it's really enjoyable.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The problems with the monks are as follow, IMO:

1- They are too frail. they have d8s for HD, which is very low for someone meant to wade into battle without armour. This plays into problem 2.

This IME doesn't make them squishier than rogues, and Patient Defence is surprisingly useful if you're in the thick of it.

2- They are too MAD. You need DEX and WIS to have a decent AC to avoid taking too much damage on your low HP and probably CON to be more solid. They need WIS to make use of their best feature (Stunning Strike). Obviously you can avoid damage by disengaging or dodging using your Ki but...

Again this just means that they are about as squishy as melee rogues.

3- Your DPS is too linked to using your Bonus Action to attack and your contribution in combat relies too much on using your very few Ki points on Flurry of Blows and Stunning Strike. You base damage is terrible and doesn't keep up that well unless you can make three attacks a round or more.

My base damage starts ahead of the two weapon wielding rogue, the rogue catches up at third, I pull ahead again at fifth, the rogue catches back up at ninth and then loses ground at eleventh. After this no one cares because we're into the spellcaster show that the levels in the teens are.

4- Stunning Strike is amazing on paper but in practice its only useful to burn through the Legendary Resistance of boss monsters. In most circumstance you're better off using Flurry of Blows rather than Stunning Strike. The best target to stuns are usually beefy and have make the save more easily, and anything that can't make the save will usually go down to a good pummelling.

The best target to stun are enemy wizards. A con save is worth far more than a single attack.

5- They don't have good feats to help them get more interesting.

I found picking Observant with my variant human pick excellent. But the problem with feats and wanting to max Dex and Wis is a valid one.

Mobile is almost useless for an Open Hand monk; the Flurry of Blows blocks the target's reaction. I also didn't miss mobile on my Way of Shadows monk when a lot of the time I could just teleport out,

6- They don't get Expertise. A Monk has great stats for skill checks and access to good skills. They can easily replace a Rogue in terms of skill coverage, but unlike the Rogue or Bard they don't get Expertise, and unlike the Ranger they don't get abilities that overcome exploration challenges. Shadow Monks at least get the benefit of being able to use 'Pass Without Trace' to get insanely high Stealth Rolls, but most of the other Monk class are not so lucky.

I'm not even going to try and defend the pile of junk that's the Four Elements monk. But the Shadow Monk does get to play with the "abilities to overcome exploration challenges"

A monk is (as it was in 1e) an extreme variant on the rogue- and in 5e one that needs less support from allies. I don't think either of them sucks (although Four Elements does) but neither's in the top half of the power curve.

 

[ninjayeti]

Treantmonk: Monks su.....
Monk: [Uses Dash as a bonus action to move 90'] Ka-Pow! Stunning fist!
Treantmonk: ......
Monk: Ka-Pow! Stunning fist
Treantmonk: ........
Monk: Ka-Pow! Stunning fist
Treantmonk: Ha! I made my sa...
Monk: Pow! Pow! Pow! Three more stunning fists!
Treantmonk dies
Monk: Sorry, what were you saying there bro?

 

[DND_Reborn]

Haven't had time to watch the video yet and just skimmed through the thread, so for now I'll add what our tables have done to make monks a wee bit better:

• Martial Arts damage die is bumped up 1 stage, so you start at d6 and end at d12. It isn't a lot but helps.
• Unarmored Defense is 10 + (DEX mod OR WIS mod) + proficiency bonus. We did this to reduce the MAD a bit and also it reflects the monks more natural ability to have a better defense at higher levels. The choice of DEX or WIS for the modifier allows the player to focus more on physical or mental aspects of their martial arts and training, etc.
• Unarmored Movement now includes an Instant Stand sub-feature at level 2, so a monk can use his reaction to stand up immediately after being prone.
• Ki is increased by your WIS modifier. We found that at lower levels monk players are hesitant to spend ki, and the extra few points helps mitigate that some.

If anyone has similar issues, maybe those will help?

I'll try to get through the video later and read the thread more thoroughly when I have time.

 

[Seramus]

Monk: Sorry, what were you saying there bro?

To be fair, monks are excellent at going Nova against a single opponent. It's often brought up as a counter argument, but massively depends on the style of encounters used by your DM.

 

[FrogReaver]

To be fair, monks are excellent at going Nova against a single opponent. It's often brought up as a counter argument, but massively depends on the style of encounters used by your DM.

At level 6 they can pace themselves through an adventuring day pretty well.

Use 2-3 ki per encounter.

 

[cmad1977]

I always know someone has nothing to say when they start with “X thing is lame.”

 

[Eyes of Nine]

The other problem is monks are MAD, but they're MAD in the way most classes should be MAD.

MAD = Most Awesome Dude/ette?
MAD = Merry Avengers of Death?
MAD = Many Arms of Delight?