D&D 5E Monks Suck

[doctorbadwolf]

Summary Monk suck because they are not the best tank, the best damage dealer, nor the best controler.

Yikes. That’s a bad take, if that is indeed the case.

Monks absolutely steal the show on a regular basis in every game I’ve been in or run with a monk. No one else can quite zip around the battle as well, or multiply the force of a simple buff from the Paladin or cleric as well, or just never have a moment of uselessness, etc.

Monks are rad as hell, even before considering their subclasses.

 

[TwoSix]

Meh, they're fine. Just houserule them some way to gain a damage bonus by sacrificing accuracy, like GWM. The other problem is monks are MAD, but they're MAD in the way most classes should be MAD. An attack stat, and a save DC/AC boosting stat, plus Con. The problem is the classes that AREN'T like that, not monk.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Count me among the people who doesn't particularly want to waste their time on a 50 minute Youtube video.

But I didn't find my Way of Shadow monk to suck. Their four spells gave them a lot of out of combat utility; Pass Without Trace is incredibly good, and Darkvision is a massive enabler of a spell. Silence can be an incredible mage-counter. And darkness is useful. The Shadow Teleport is perfect for getting to the right target (the enemy mage) to clobber them. And even at level 11 Invisibility at will is a bit behind the curve but pretty nice. All excellent ninja stuff on a solid (although not outstanding) chassis.

Now if you're going to claim the Way of the Four Elements monk sucks you'd be right. The Shadow Monk makes ki into a non-combat resource, the Way of the Open Hand monk gets better use out of their combat resources, and the Way of the Elements monk has alternative strictly combat uses.

 

[Undrave]

The problems with the monks are as follow, IMO:

1- They are too frail. they have d8s for HD, which is very low for someone meant to wade into battle without armour. This plays into problem 2.

2- They are too MAD. You need DEX and WIS to have a decent AC to avoid taking too much damage on your low HP and probably CON to be more solid. They need WIS to make use of their best feature (Stunning Strike). Obviously you can avoid damage by disengaging or dodging using your Ki but...

3- Your DPS is too linked to using your Bonus Action to attack and your contribution in combat relies too much on using your very few Ki points on Flurry of Blows and Stunning Strike. You base damage is terrible and doesn't keep up that well unless you can make three attacks a round or more. The moment you try to protect yourself your DPS goes down. Speaking of Stunning Strike...

4- Stunning Strike is amazing on paper but in practice its only useful to burn through the Legendary Resistance of boss monsters. In most circumstance you're better off using Flurry of Blows rather than Stunning Strike. The best target to stuns are usually beefy and have make the save more easily, and anything that can't make the save will usually go down to a good pummelling.

5- They don't have good feats to help them get more interesting. Mobile is the best for them, but it's essentially a feat tax to allow them to weave in and out of battle safely like they should be able to from the stat. You don't even WANT to take feat until you max both DEX and WIS because you badly need the benefit of those stat bumps to keep you useful. This means you don't get fun, build-defining, feats like Polearm Mastery or even fluffier stuff like Actor.

And finally:

6- They don't get Expertise. A Monk has great stats for skill checks and access to good skills. They can easily replace a Rogue in terms of skill coverage, but unlike the Rogue or Bard they don't get Expertise, and unlike the Ranger they don't get abilities that overcome exploration challenges. Shadow Monks at least get the benefit of being able to use 'Pass Without Trace' to get insanely high Stealth Rolls, but most of the other Monk class are not so lucky.

Here, does this cover what the video says @Mistwell or is there different points??

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Summary Monk suck because they are not the best tank, the best damage dealer, nor the best controler.

In other news, grass is green.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

I can't count the number of tries that a monk has done the Flurry of Blows-Stunning Strike spamming combo on a boss fight, burning through all their ki points until the boss eventually fails their save. I don't mind the monk class, but that particular cheap strategy gets on my nerves.

A guy that normally plays barbarians in the one game I'm playing in is trying out a monk and has gotten into trouble because he keeps trying to tank on a class that's built as a skirmisher. It seems like a lot of people fall into that trap.

4- Stunning Strike is amazing on paper but in practice its only useful to burn through the Legendary Resistance of boss monsters. In most circumstance you're better off using Flurry of Blows rather than Stunning Strike. The best target to stuns are usually beefy and have make the save more easily, and anything that can't make the save will usually go down to a good pummelling.

 

[Helldritch]

I just watched the whole video. I don't fully agree yet, some good points are made.
1) On AC.
Monk could have a better AC and it would not hurt. Still, the ability to enhance their AC through a bonus action by using dodge means that they can be very difficult to hit and contrary to other classes, they can still attack. But yes, they could get a better AC but there are so many ways to increase AC with magic that the monk could be nigh impossible to hit if its AC is enhanced. So I am not sure if it would be the way to go...

2) Ki as a resource.
This one I completely agree. Ki isn't in sufficient number to make it so prevalent. Having Ki spending on Flurry is an abheration that should be removed. If Ki would be used only for special abilities, it would be more interesting and useful. Adding wisdom bonus to Ki is what I am currently doing and it works very well.

3) Monk as a damage dealer.
A bit of the above (2, Ki as a resource) answered this. Martial art damage should rise to 2d6 or 1d12 and way sooner than it reaches 1d10. The monk should reach maximum die at about level 11. I personally allow monks to use their weapon's damage die on the first of their flurry attack. The second attack uses their martial art die. In the current state, as RAW, the monk does not do enough damage to be a front liner. Their number of extra attack, is limited to one. They should do as much extra attacks as the fighter. But not if they are allowed free flurry. Even with all of the above, the monk would be a bit subpar damage wise. On that I agree, but the monk's role is not entirely to do damage.

4) Monk as a mobile opponent.
This one I disagree completely. A horsed character will move faster yes. But bring a horse in a cave or dungeon. Have you ever seen a horse using stairs? No this debunkal in the video was pure BS. The man, clearly wanted to find ways to debunk the monk and he was so bend on doing it that on this he uses fallacious arguments to make the monk look bad as a mobile opponent. Ho and he completely forgot to say that a monk can run alongside a wall by 9th level. Go see if your horse can run on a wall. This enables monk to avoid a lot of minions and to get directly to the boss or spellcaster.

5) Debunkal of special abilities.
Again, this is a yes and a no. Some of the monk's special abilities comes a bit too late for my tastes too. And, when they get them, the other classes have been using similar abilities for quite a few levels.
Missile deflection: This one is a good one. It should be usable more. The damage prevention should extend to all incomissiles up to the total damage prevented. This would make the ability way more better.
Stunning Strike: Completely disagree. The stunning strike is great. Monsters are rarely proficient with CN save and even if their CN is good, by the time you encounter a monster with +5 CN you can be at a DC save of 15 or more. At first level you are probably already at 12 and 13 or 14 at 5th. Most monsters will be stunned 50% of the time. This means that you need about 2 ki points to shut down a monster and give advantage to your team mates (More on that later).
Stillness of mind: I agree with him. Using your action to end this is ridicule. It should have been either reaction or a bonus action. Using your action on this is subpar to what other classes can do.
Purity of body: Again he is right. Immunity to disease is meh. But the Poison part is really good.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon: Again he is right. Other classes can reach the same result way sooner. An ASI would have been better or an Extra attack.
Diamond soul: I think he is not entirely wrong. Being proficient with all save isn't such a big deal. It's nice but not essential. Where I diverge, is the part he silenced. The ability to reroll for a Ki point is way better than the proficiency.
Timeless body: He is right. This is meh as most campaign will not see old age set in. It should have been paired with an ASI.
Empty Body: He is wrong. This one is incredibly strong. It is not magical so it can not be dispelled. Yes other classes can become invisible way earlier but they can be dispelled. In addition, the resistance to all damage is nothing to sniff at.
Perfect Self: He is right. The ability should grant way more than a miser 4 ki point. Going for 10 should have been better.

The analysis was a good but biased one. He wanted to prove the monk was bad at each type of role. And if you look at the monk this way, he is absolutely right. The monk isn't the best damage dealer. It does not have the highest AC. It's mobility can be achieved by mounted characters "when" they can mount. It is not even the best controler, a mage and cleric can be way better in that role. But you should not look the monk at each role separately but as a character that can do all these simultenaously. This is where the strength of the monks really shine. This brings me to

6) Monk as a controller
In his assessment, our friend tells us that the monk isn't the best controller. Again he is right. The save DC of stunning strike will probably stay at a 50% of failure throughout the monk's carreer. Mass control is almost non existant as the limited Ki prevents such an over usage. Pretty depressing isn't it? But, strangely, this is also the strength of the monk.

Here is why.
The monk can force a creature/opponent to redo the save with every single strike. With a 50% chance of failure, the opponent will fail. And when that fails, the monk start to shine. On his next action, the monk will grab the target and restrain it, since the target is stuned it will fail its save automatically. This way his allies will have advantage to strike the opponent. And this is why BBEG and casters in general should be affraid of the monk. The is question is not if the monk will get to them. HE WILL! With a bonus action, the monk can dodge, he is fast enough to close the distance in a single round (generally) and he can avoid rows of minions by walking/running on the walls. Who cares if the monk falls at the end of his movement? The monk will not take damage anyways. Once the monk has grabbed the target (BBEG), the monk can bring the target to his melee allies in no time. All the while, his friends will be attacking the target with advantage freely ignoring minions. By 8th level, if the monk did not take mobility he can run 90 feet without using a bonus action. If he does, this goes up to 135 feet. This is usually a lot more than the usual encounter distance in any game. If the monk is lucky and the target is within 45 feet, the monk can get to the target, attack twice, if the target is stunned, he can use the dodge action as a bonus action. Or he can attack two more times to stun the target if it had somehow made two saves in a row. Then on the second round, grapple the target and run back to his friends where they will happily attack the target with advantage.

The monk can ignore, minions. The monk will mess with opponents' positionning. He can effectively shut down Solo BBEG for a few rounds making such encounters way easier. The monk isn't the best tank, damage dealer or controler, but he is great being a mix of all of these. Sometimes it is not about raw damage, high AC or the amount of control that you bring. It is what the blend of your abilities brings that matter. Numbers are not everything.

Edit: Added a few missing words here and there. I really should use Words before hand for such long posts and not my phone...

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I just watched the whole video.

How much SAN do you have left?

 

[FrogReaver]

If it was me I’d start out by comparing a open hand monk to a TWF battlemaster fighter.

 

[Seramus]

For all the flaws of the monk, the one that bothers me the most? Almost no support for anything but Dex/Wis.

I would take The Pugilist any day.