D&D 5E (2014) Monks Suck

[Paul Farquhar]

I played a 3e shadowdowdancer to 20th level. Shadow monk is what shadowdancer should have been.

What was your base class? In 3e rogue-shadowdancer, bard-shadowdancer, and monk-shadowdancer where pretty different to each other.

 

[humble minion]

What was your base class? In 3e rogue-shadowdancer, bard-shadowdancer, and monk-shadowdancer where pretty different to each other.

Rogue/fighter/shadowdancer

But the problem was the poor scaling of the shadowdancer abilities. Hide in plain sight was great, but shadow illusion was once per day (and for me the save DC was rubbish, because Cha was my dump stat), and the daily shadow step distances were just so short as to be basically useless at lower levels, and the shadow summons were useful but were really one-shot weapons at high level before someone just offhandedly blatted them out of existence.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Rogue/fighter/shadowdancer

But the problem was the poor scaling of the shadowdancer abilities. Hide in plain sight was great, but shadow illusion was once per day (and for me the save DC was rubbish, because Cha was my dump stat), and the daily shadow step distances were just so sort as to be basically useless at lower levels, and the shadow summons were useful but were really one-shot weapons at high level before someone just offhandedly blatted them out of existence.

Yeah, MAD was a big issue. And for the Bard-Shadowdancer HiPS wasn't that useful without sneak attack.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Not great. 3 attacks dealing 1d10+5 damage is on par with the Wizards cantrips for DPR,

Wot?
That is Warlock at-will damage, not wizard, unless I'm missing something.

and around the same as Ranger with no slots.

Movement speed remains good, and most defences are still working (no re-rolls on saves, but proficient in all of them, can still deflect arrows, retains most immunities, no Ki Dodge, cant go intangible or astrally project).

Right, but where does the Monk without resources fit in on this ranking?

If it remember rightly, the monk works out as a short-rest spell-point half(?) caster?
So I'm guessing its capability without Ki should be at the same point as the Paladin or Ranger with no spells.

But when you stress test something you don't just test optimal conditions!

When the warlock runs out of spells he can still spam eldritch blast (possibly cheesy and boring but can't say ineffective);
When the BM fighter runs out of maneuvers he's still got a decent armor class, a good weapon etc.;
When a monk runs out of ki... then what?

This is not a pejorative or insult - I'm honestly asking when the monk runs out of ki - what's his best move (and yes the answer is likely subclass dependent, so there may be more than one answer)?

They are still an effective melee combatant with high mobility. They make their basic attacks, which compare well to the Warlock's Eldritch Blast spam and the Ranger's at-will attacks.

It's not really what we're talking about?

Like, whenever we say "Fighters suck outside of combat, they should get something more" there's ALWAYS this massive pushback of "The Fighter is fine! Shut up and stop ruining our fun!" like we insulted them or something... geez.

Me and others just see some flaws in the game in aspects we care about and want to talk what would help those improve... becaue this is a friggin' discusion board and COVID-19 took away my only game and this is the only friggin' way I can interact with the game, so can people just LET US HAVE SOME FUN DISCUSSING WAYS TO BUFF THINGS THEY SEEM TO THINK ARE FINE?!

I get it if we were talking nerfs, but this is BUFFS were talking about! Why does it matter?! They're not even accusing us of just wanting to be OP or some munchkin stuff. No, they're just dismissing our concern and acting insulted.

There is a distinction between "Fighters lack support and options out of combat, particularly at higher levels" and "Fighters SUCK!"

You can't build a monk to massively improve on its non-optimised performance, like you can with say, a Fighter. The polearm or hand crossbow specialist BM fighter is much better than the baseline fighter, but monks don't have those decision points when building a character. You can't build a monk that is as tanky as a defensive-focused fighter, and definitely not as high DPR as an offensively-focused one. Whether you want to be hard to hurt, do extra damage, or control enemies is a decision made on a round-by-round basis with expenditure of resources. Combined with its ability to move around the battlefield, there are more tactical decision points than a lot of other classes, there are just very few meaningful character build choices. No great synergies with subclass features and feats, or splashing multiclass levels etc.
There just isn't much you can do at the character build level to minmax the monk.
Resource budget, and how to use them, combined with what is likely the best class mobility in the game, make the monk a fun class for some people. For others, the limited resources are a straitjacket and the monk doesn't do as well as it could in a slugfest so they find it a not-fun class.

 

[Asisreo]

But it would only be powercreep for the game as a whole if it were incorrect that the class as is is underpowered. If an underpowered class is buffed to be more in line with other classes, it's not hurting anybody who doesn't want to play monk, it just makes playing monk a more mechanically viable choice.

Now powercreep within the class of adding a new subclass which is buffed compared to the others is another story. I'm not sure if that's the way to go, vs. revising the base class. But it's the way they went when they introduced Gloomstalker, which my sense is many people were happy to see... and ranger as a whole package is stronger than monk as a base class (despite, like the monk, also having a number of 'ribbon' features where other classes are getting real meat) because it has spells.

Gloomstalker is exactly the type of changes I do not like seeing.

If they're going to buff the class, they should have buffed it all. The fact that you now must get Xanathar's Guide to have access to the best ranger subclass means Ranger fans must buy the second book, while other classes get lateral changes that can be ignored. Nobody calls the forge domain cleric the strongest cleric and the far-and-away strongest subclass, it's just something nice and flavorful for clerics.

 

[Asisreo]

I agree. But both of those statements apply to the monk.

I'd be perfectly happy if we dropped the word 'suck' entirely from this thread. It's clearly riling people up in ways that are orthogonal to the purpose of the original video that kicked this off. I've clarified that all I've ever meant by critiques of the class are that it has a number of flaws that cause parties to be mechanically weaker overall if they slot in a monk instead of pretty much anything else. I think what "sucks" is that that's the case. Like, it's a bummer for the game for someone who cares about having a lot of options for playstyles that are roughly on par with each other.

The mechanics aren't damage numbers, no. And lots of other things are harder to quantify. That doesn't mean that trying to quantify them is wrong. There might be better and worse ways to do it... and that's one role that threads like this can play: pointing out shortcomings of some particular analysis. But, I mean... the game runs on an engine of dice rolls, and numbers, with imagination and roleplay layered on top. It's a pretty darn quantitative system. That doesn't mean there aren't also other ways to talk about it that aren't quantitative, but quantitative analysis is most definitely a valid pursuit in itself.

Here's another perspective that may help:

I dabble in the fighting game competitive scene. When a new game comes out and it's in Beta, the characters will often have their frame data released. Some characters may seem to be bad, or some moves from some characters. It may have bad startup, endlag, and active frames while not doing amazing damage. However, it may have amazing coverage and the visuals are made harder to see, reducing reactability. In theory, the character should be bad since it isn't that great, but in practice, he's constantly getting Top 8 in tourneys. It may be that his mix-up options, which is harder to quantify, are extremely good and difficult to react to because their visual cues look similar to other similar moves.

A framedata analysis is not nearly as coveted as actual records. Win-losses and so forth.

 

[Helldritch]

It all boils down to this.
Monks sucks because their resource, Ki, is not plentiful enough. So they can't do their shenanigans all the time.

For me this is what makes the monk an attractive class.
1) The monk needs to manage his resource carefully. Agreed.
This is perhaps, the strongest point against and for the monk. The monk is just like the rogue, and not the fighter. A rogue that is unable to sneak attack is even worst than the monk. Yet, no one brings that up because a rogue can manage not to get into that situation with relative ease by moving close to an ally, using disengage as bonus action, hiding, etc... The monk, when left with no ki, is left with two attacks. If the monk is forced to stay at a distance, this means that the monk will be stuck with 1d6 +dex for each possible attacks. At high level this implies that a rogue will potentially make 1d6 +dex with a small bow once, but he will be able to possibly add its sneak attack damage, 10d6. A better comparison would be with a paladin or ranger or barb that no longer have any resource. They are stuck with their two attacks too. Yet, no one bring that up. Strangely, it does happen a lot in my games.

2) The monk relies on short rests, which can be DM dependent. Agreed.
This is both a strength and a weakness. With an assumed two short rest per day (average 2.5 for convenience) the monk will still get low (or depleted) on Ki. But the monk will be able to "nova" if needed be about once out of three fights. Not all fights should be deadly and not all fights should warrant the use of Ki. Monks sucks when they are deprived of short rests and all fights are on the "deadly" range. For me, this is more of DM lack of understanding and pacing when faced with such short rest dependent classes. But monks are not the only one that are actually punished very hard when their resource (Ki) is depleted. As stated before, a paladin, ranger, barbs, when out of resources, are no longer able to do a lot of damage either. With no magical weapons, these classes are stuck with weapon + stat bonus damage and only one or two attacks. Some will have a better AC, other will be about the same. When the 5mwd is allowed, these classes do not need to manage resources. But when the 6-8 encounters are enforced, they are in the same predicament as the monk. The only advantage is that their weapon might do better damage than the monk hand to hand. Then the monk should use a weapon to "up" its damage. A quarter staff is a great way to enhanced the monk's damage. If the quarterstaff is magical, the better. People often forget that the monk can use some weapons, including bows and throwing weapon to exactly the same damage potential as a paladin, barb or ranger.

3) Almost no magical suits the monk to help them. Agreed and not...
There are some that will help. Glove of Ogre strength are great on a monk. A +4 to athletics means that the monk will be better at grappeling enemies. And this item is often unneeded by strength type characters as they will raise their ST to 20 anyways...

A ring, bracer or a cloack of protection will help the monk just as it will help any other classes.

A potion of growth is even better on a monk. +1d4 damage is great, especially with flurry. Some DM might argue that you need a weapon. A quarter staff is still a weapon. The monk's fists are weapons for all intent and purpose. If you consider the monk to be weak, then you should allow this.

A magical short bow, quarter staff, throwing weapon (with the return property) that the monk can use is also a boon. A distance weapon can be quite useful.

And now, the surprise items.
Animated shield. Yes a monk can't use a shield. But he can wear this one, utter the command word and benefit from the protection just like any other character. He can't wield a shield and benefit from its martial art, but the shield is not in use, only it's special ability.
Dimensionnal shackles. The monk, with stunning strike can put these shackles on an enemy in no time.
Glove of missile snaring. Yes the monk can already do that. But doing it twice is even better.
Robe of scintillating colors. These are not restricted to mages and they do not count as armor. It is a free Patient Defense 3x day + a possible stun to all within 30 feet. Since the monk moves a lot more than that. It can mean failed saving throws on a fireball for a lot of enemies. And the monk with evasion will certainly save taking no damage.
The robe of stars, even though less usefull that the preceding robes, are still great on a monk.
The ultimate staff for a monk is of course the Staff of Striking.
A lot of people forget that some wands are usable by all and not only spell casters. This is a big change as a monk can use some of these to great effects.
Winged boots. These will give the monk the best flying speed ever...

 

[FrozenNorth]

So do you concede that its roughly 50/50 then?

Even against literally the strongest DPR class in the game at that level in a SS/ CE/ Archery BM Fighter (with Con 16, d10 HP and Con save proficiency) barring maybe a Raging GWM Frenzy Barbarian?

Worth pointing out. Monk tends to do even better against the barbarian. The Monk is likely to go first, and stunlock the barbarian before he can rage.

In one of the Crit Roll one shots, an 4E monk went up against a barb/rogue (reckless attack providing adv for Sneak attack). The monk won easily.

 

[Chaosmancer]

For me this is what makes the monk an attractive class.
1) The monk needs to manage his resource carefully. Agreed.
This is perhaps, the strongest point against and for the monk. The monk is just like the rogue, and not the fighter. A rogue that is unable to sneak attack is even worst than the monk. Yet, no one brings that up because a rogue can manage not to get into that situation with relative ease by moving close to an ally, using disengage as bonus action, hiding, etc... The monk, when left with no ki, is left with two attacks. If the monk is forced to stay at a distance, this means that the monk will be stuck with 1d6 +dex for each possible attacks. At high level this implies that a rogue will potentially make 1d6 +dex with a small bow once, but he will be able to possibly add its sneak attack damage, 10d6. A better comparison would be with a paladin or ranger or barb that no longer have any resource. They are stuck with their two attacks too. Yet, no one bring that up. Strangely, it does happen a lot in my games.

Nitpick on facts, but this seems wrong.

A monk without ki, by 5th level, has three attacks if they are in melee. Their bonus action Martial arts attack is free, it is unarmed so it is melee only, but this brings me to my second point.

At higher levels, a monk is not left with 1d6+dex for each attack. While Monk weapons do not include ranged weapons (except when they do either via the Variants UA or the Kensei) thrown weapons absolutely are monk weapons. By the time the rogue is dealing 10d6 sneak the Monk can throw two daggers for 1d10+dex each, because martial arts cares about the type of weapon, not the type of attack.

And while that is a relatively short range... We are talking about a high level monk. They have the movement speed to get within 20 ft of an opponent and back out without much threat.

So, A monk with no ki is no worse on damage than a Battlemaster with no superiority dice.

Animated shield. Yes a monk can't use a shield. But he can wear this one, utter the command word and benefit from the protection just like any other character. He can't wield a shield and benefit from its martial art, but the shield is not in use, only it's special ability.

Oh, interesting idea

Glove of missile snaring. Yes the monk can already do that. But doing it twice is even better.

Doesn't work, they both use your reaction. You'd need to homebrew multiple reactions.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I agree. But both of those statements apply to the monk.

I'd be perfectly happy if we dropped the word 'suck' entirely from this thread.

A better title would be "Monks are on the low end of white-room DPR calculations."