monks too powerful

[Zaknafein]

Uh oh, just read Zaks list.. doesn't make sense.

Try to play a game from 1st to, say, 16th level, then come back and tell me monk is uber. Really.

Well for some reason the DM choose that we should start at 14th level so I never got to see that....

It's so not uber. Clerics might be uber. Wizards might be uber. But not monks.

I dont deny that spellcasters are uber especially if they craft their own magical items...

BTW, just to counter one point: immune to disease and poison? Whoop-ti-friggin-doo. At those levels PCs rarely to succumb to those dangers anyway... big deal.

Well if your in an underground campaign against drow who love to use poison then guess what no matter what level you are if a thousand of those suckers shoot their darts at ya... ones going to go threw your saves... however mister monk there... it just wont faze him a bit....

-in honor zakanfein

 

[Creeperman]

Well if your in an underground campaign against drow who love to use poison then guess what no matter what level you are if a thousand of those suckers shoot their darts at ya... ones going to go threw your saves... however mister monk there... it just wont faze him a bit....

-in honor zakanfein

And your point is? They'll just have to shoot him to death instead. One monk versus a thousand hand-crossbow-wielding mooks of any sort equals one very dead monk.

 

[Hashmalum]

True, the monk is good against drow; the monk can deflect their poisoned arrows, ignore the poison, and shrug off their spells. This is only a problem for a campaign if all the players fight are drow and the drow don't use sensible tactics. If you ran a campaign with hordes and hordes of undead, the cleric and paladin would rock. If you ran a campaign with lots and lots of animals, the ranger and druid would breeze through it.

In other words, the problem isn't the monk; the problem is your campaign. If you can't or won't tailor your campaign to challenge your players, it hardly implies that one of the core classes is overpowered.

 

[Destil]

The monk is a spell caster killer. That's what they do best. But there's plenty of spells that don't allow SR / Saves, it's hardly impossible to win as a spellcaster. For instance it's kinda hard to snap the archmage's neck while you're being grappled by a summoned celestial dire bear he conjured up while you were finding your way out of his maze.

 

[Oni]

If monks are broken then sorcerers must be the most broken class in the game.

So the monk gets a lot of abilities, but that is nothing compared to the number of new abilities a sorcerer gets per level, because that is afterall pretty much what a spell is, a special ability, especially to a sorcerer. Not only that they get to use the powerful abilities they acquire many times per day.

Your picking out the best of what the monk has and then ignoring all the class abilities of all the other classes for your comparison.

If you ask me the monk is probably the 2nd weakest, or perhaps even the weakest of all of the 3E classes.

 

[Victim]

Delay poison or Hero's Feast will allow any character to shrug off poisoned bolts.

My brother and I refer to weak attacks as "Monk damage." Obviously, we don't think monks are overpowered.

 

[Brett]

Are you sure that monks are only mage killers? I would have thought that they also did OK against tanks using hit and fade tactics 1 on 1. Their move is insane..... and while they lack the cool stuff like flaming or whatever with their hand attacks, they do get more attacks.

I have to say that I haven't fully thought this through, and I don't have the rule books here either. Their saves are also quite impressive..... when combined with improved evasion, as Zak pointed out, it makes area effect spells and spell like effects all but useless.

I need to hear more as to why they get beaten up by tanks 1 on 1 to decide here....

I am DMing a game where there is a monk that is just starting to come into his own, and he is quite impressive so far....

-Brett

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

The problem monks have with tanks is that they have trouble hitting high AC tanks and they can't compete with the damage output of a barbarian style low AC tank. Sure, monks are fast. Sure, monks can spring attack. But by the time a monk's movement is good enough that he can start ouside the tank's charge range and finish outside the tank's charge range, the tank probably has access to fly (through an item usually) and all of a sudden, the monk's speed doesn't look so superior. And if the monk is in charge range (natural or through fly or expeditious retreat), then the "hit and fade" monk is going to be exchanging blows on a 1 for one basis. Even in a best case scenario--a 20th level 26 strength monk who managed a +5 enhancement bonus on his fists (maybe through greater magic fang) that's only 1d20+13 points of damage--average 23.5 A dedicated (single classed fighter) with a two handed weapon (the kind of fighter a monk can hit reliably) will probably have a higher strength (let's say 30 to account for the greater priority given to str in character creation and item choice), a +7 or +8 equivalent weapon (let's say +5 chaotic) will be doing 1d12+22+2d6--average 35.5 before power attack figures into it.

But the monk has more attacks, you say. The fighter also has the flexibility to multiclass if he wants to. If said fighter takes one level of barbarian, he can rage to pump his damage up to an average of 38.5 and if he doesn't want to change his attack bonus, power attack as well to get 40.5 average points of damage per hit. So the fighter/barbarian with a two handed weapon deals almost twice as much damage per hit as the monk and has a better attack bonus and is consequently able to make good on more of his attacks.

Now it's true that a monk in a party can do fairly well against tanks--especially with spring attack. Spring attack into a flank, make an attack and spring back. The monk can be quite helpful that way and if the enemy tank is fighting the monk's tank friend, he probably won't risk the AoO to move and go after the monk. But take away the monk's friend and any well constructed tank will tear the monk up like tissue paper.

Are you sure that monks are only mage killers? I would have thought that they also did OK against tanks using hit and fade tactics 1 on 1. Their move is insane..... and while they lack the cool stuff like flaming or whatever with their hand attacks, they do get more attacks.

I have to say that I haven't fully thought this through, and I don't have the rule books here either. Their saves are also quite impressive..... when combined with improved evasion, as Zak pointed out, it makes area effect spells and spell like effects all but useless.

I need to hear more as to why they get beaten up by tanks 1 on 1 to decide here....

I am DMing a game where there is a monk that is just starting to come into his own, and he is quite impressive so far....

-Brett

 

[Victim]

Springing into and out of a flanking position also leaves your partner out to dry. He won't even get the flanking bonus and will receive all the attacks. Also, if a Monk is using spring attack, he isn't using Flurry of Blows and his improved unarmed attack rate.

Also, Monks have greater stat depency than fighters. A fighter wants big strength and Con, and some 13s for feat access. A monk wants high everything except Charisma. I usually give PCs a generous 35 point buy. You can usually get 2 good stats and some decent scores, or get a bunch of moderately good stats. A fighter can go 18/16, 16/18, or 16/16 and still have acceptable other stats. On the other hand, a monk can use almost all stats. He fights, so he needs HP. He doesn't wear armor, so he needs Dex and Wis. WIS also helps many of his special abilities. Strength adds damage. Monks also have a skill list that asks for more than 4 skills, so a decent INT is useful too, but not completely necessary. If the monk goes Dex and Wis, he's well defended, but his damage sucks and he needs to spend a feat on weapon finess. On the other hand, without Dex and Wis as his good stats, his AC won't be so great. Without a godlike set of rolls, the monk is going to suffer somewhere.

Quivering Palm only works against creatures with less HD than the monk. You said something about big red dragons, with 30+ HD. In any case, similar instant death effects on a failed save exist. Even the lowly 1st level command can grant a coup de grace - almost instant death - on a failed save in certain conditions. Slay Living can be cast 6 levels earlier than a monk gets Quivering Palm, and is better.

BTW, Spell Resistance is in the general cleric list too. But a wizard has a 55% chance against an equal level Monk's SR, and might have Spell Penetration or other effects. And it's not as if every spell the wizard has needs to be aimed at the monk. Defensive spells, buffs on the wizard's allies - the guy fighting the monk perhaps - or attacks on the monk's friends still work. Summoning stuff can work too.

 

[Brett]

"The problem monks have with tanks is that they have trouble hitting high AC tanks and they can't compete with the damage output of a barbarian style low AC tank."

I'll grant that monks have trouble hitting a high AC; and I can see your argument as far as magic goes, but a lot of it relies on having a high level character with high magic, with no real consideration for any magic the monk may have. For instance, the monks belt - haste for the monk. If you're going to grant the high level fighter or barbarian a +8 weapon or so, and a fly item, then it is almost certain that the high level monk is going to have a monks belt. What other items is a high level monk going to take?

I'm not sure how the monk would best use this, but the easiest way to reduce it is to look at the high level characters WITHOUT magic. In this instance, the high level monk is going to have all sorts of fun bouncing in and out of combat with his high move (and spring attack) versus the high level fighter/barbarian with no magic items.

"...higher strength (let's say 30 to account for the greater priority given to str in character creation and item choice), a +7 or +8 equivalent weapon (let's say +5 chaotic) will be doing 1d12+22+2d6--average 35.5 before power attack figures into it."

Where did you get the +22 from? I can see +5 for the sword, and a 30 strength would give what - +10? So that's +15 = where's the other +7? Weopon spec won't get you there. I may be missing something, but I would like to know what it is....

Multi classing is probably (as far as I can see) where the monk IS brought to earth...... as far as player choie goes, and all the power gaming that goes with it. As far as I can see, that's where the monk gets balanced. I must admit that I didn't consider this before.....

-Brett