Monks Underpowered?

[pbd]

Out of curiosity... what is his AC?

Bye
Thanee

31 regular (10 + 6 [dex] + 3 [wis] + 2 [ring] + 2 [monk] + 8 [bracers; just got em after facing a death warden or somesuch], 32 with boots of speed. The fighter/ranger is about 28.

 

[Scion]

Does Improved Natural Attack work on a Monk's unarmed strike?

There are people who disagree, but I feel that the raw shows that it does.

The monks unarmed strike counts as a natural weapon and a manufactured weapon for different things. I feel that improved natural attack is well within the realm of these things.

To me it is very similar to a fighter type picking up exotic weapon proficiency. That feat can allow one to pick up a weapon that is identical to another weapon but with a damage die increase (potential other effects of course, but I said 'similar' not 'the same' ).

 

[pbd]

Does Improved Natural Attack work on a Monk's unarmed strike?

Some say yes, some say no. If we are not careful this will degenerate into another slug fest over rules interpretation.

There was a recent thread on this issue

 

[Thanee]

True, but you only really need to connect with one. Wizards aren't known for their high fortitude saves.

Depends... most have a good Con at least. And a failed save doesn't kill the wizard, if only the monk is there to beat him. Defensive spells will still be running and next round is as good as this one to teleport into safety.

However, while it's incredibly unlikely to beat the wizard that way, it's quite likely to keep him or her busy for a few rounds at least.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

31 regular (10 + 6 [dex] + 3 [wis] + 2 [ring] + 2 [monk] + 8 [bracers; just got em after facing a death warden or somesuch], 32 with boots of speed.

Nice find!

The fighter/ranger is about 28.

Sounds reasonable; with +5 armor and +5 shield (which together cost less than the bracers ), they would have pretty high AC as well, tho.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

There are people who disagree, but I feel that the raw shows that it does.

On a strict reading it's probably a no (they only count as natural weapons for spells and effects that enhance their attacks, so the monk cannot fulfill the prerequisite for the feat, since the monk does not have a natural weapon (only a weapon, that counts as natural for some purposes); and it could also be argued, whether a feat is an 'effect' for this purpose).

Anyways, that's not really the point of this thread.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Victim]

The weird way of counting attacks by their unarmed attackbonus allowed them to get 7 Attacks with flurry(or well and improved version from sword and fist)

Yeah, they could take lots and lots of attacks that all sucked. The monk's attack progression, especially with lightning fists, tended to produce many attacks at very poor bonuses. A monk's attack with flurry would be +13/+13/+10/+7/+4/+1 at level 20 with just Bab and flurry penalties. You're attacking like a rogue, but you don't have sneak attack.

They as the only Character/Class Could deal 1d20 Damage on an attack

And now they can deal 2d10 damage on a hit, which is more damage on average. It also reduces the chance of scoring really weak hits (of course, it also reduces the chance of rolling 20 damage).

And They didn't have that much of a problem with damage reduction as they've got a bonus themselves to beat it + you could just get some of those greater magic fang items for the tough encountters .. or ally with a druid.

The effective bonus monks got from Ki strike was far behind the DR monsters had. At level 10, when the monk gets +1, monsters with DR often had +2 or greater DR. Now monks have a better chance of beating DR at low levels and have a chance of just blasting through it with big damage numbers.

One of the best features about the monk is that his multiple attack ability allows him full STR bonus on all the attacks, so he can easily multiply his damage bonus. Especially with Greater Flurry.

 

[Rashak Mani]

3.5ed 15th lvl Human Vow of Poverty Monk -> AC 35 (full defensive at 41 AC)

Vow of Poverty gives some great stuff to Monks... and I still felt I was a second class fighter. Made worse by the fact that the other "fighters" are a swashbuckler (good with criticals) and an Archer (low damage per hit). So the lack of a damage dealer just makes the monk seem even less useful.

I do soak up a lot of attacks and damage... even the miserly DR5 means I can stay up quite long.

Damage Reduction monsters have been the greatest pain until now... Huge Fire elementals and Iron Golems...

 

[pbd]

Sounds reasonable; with +5 armor and +5 shield (which together cost less than the bracers ), they would have pretty high AC as well, tho.

Bye
Thanee

Actually (not to quibble, just making sure I remember correctly), the bracers are bonus squared x 1000, so +8 is 64k. The armor and shield are both also bonus squared x 1000 and at +5 each equal 100k. they beat the bracers in price, but not by much!

But, yes it was a good find. One of those things where we fought something nasty and got a "reward"; one roll on the major magic item table. The monk, in his first battle with the party, got very lucky...

 

[Ranger REG]

So why is the monk class generally thought be underpowered? Not being snotty, I'm really interested in peoples opinion on this.

Perhaps because the players don't know where the monk fit in the niche of adventuring party. I don't know if 1e gamers have trouble fitting the monk in, but somewhere along the line, 2e designers figured the monk class should be left out of the core rules, but then it gradually came back.

In any case, if they felt it is underpowered in their martial ability, perhaps they should consider using the Fighting Style variants in the Unearthed Arcana to give it a boost. IIRC, Dragon #334 added a few more Fighting Style including Wushu for the monk class.

Personally, I prefer the 3.5e monk class because it eliminated the separate Unarmed Attack Bonus and replaced it with a revised Flurry of Blows feature.