Monks versus two-weapon fighters

[Jack Daniel]

Once upon a time, monks were the masters of the multiple attack routine. Through most of AD&D, the best a two weapon fighter could ever hope for was three attacks per round, versus the 4 attacks awarded to the revised 1e and the (very late appearing) 2e monk. Even in 3.0, the monk was toe-to-toe with the two weapon fighter (Flurry granted the same number of attacks as Improved 2WF), but as more 2WF feats were added, rangers and fighter/tempests pulled way ahead of the monk in terms of maximum attacks per round.

With 3.5, it's actually become worse - now the monk tops out at 5 attacks even when using the Flurry of Blows, and Greater 2WF is core, making 7 attacks per round the core maximum for a two-weapon fighter (until epic levels, when Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting makes it 8). Now I'm well aware that the monk is not a "pure fighter type" class, but I do happen to be rather nostalgic about multiple attacks being the monk's schitck. It's a funny story as to why -- the first time I played through Final Fantasy I, my monk killed Chaos in one round with 20x hits for 2002 damage!

I just always liked monks being the multiple attackers, so I started thinking of ways to keep things balanced while letting the monk surpass or at least equal a two-weapon fighter in number of attacks per round. The first idea was to let monks make off-hand attacks with unarmed strikes, and make use of the same two-weapon fighting feats to increase their attacks. This was workable, but turned out a bit on the complicated side. My next idea was this: create feats that are analogous to Improved 2WF and Greater 2WF, but call them Improved FoB and Greater FoB.

It will take some testing to see whether or not they're fine as-is or if they require an attack penalty, since the Flurry of Blows is generally stronger than Two-Weapon Fighting already.

Improved Flurry of Blows [Special]
Prerequisites: Flurry of Blows attack bonus +6
Benefit: When using the Flurry of Blows, you recieve one extra attack at a -5 penalty to hit. With this feat, the monk's Flurry of Blows attack routine is as follows:

[color=white]
Lvl    Attack Bonus
--     --
9th    +6/+6/+1/+1
10th   +7/+7/+2/+2
11th   +8/+8/+8/+3/+3
--     --
12th   +9/+9/+9/+4/+4
13th   +9/+9/+9/+4/+4
14th   +10/+10/+10/+5/+5
--     --
15th   +11/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1
16th   +12/+12/+12/+7/+7/+2
17th   +12/+12/+12/+7/+7/+2
--     --
18th   +13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3
19th   +14/+14/+14/+9/+9/+4
20th   +15/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5
[/color]

Greater Flurry of Blows [Special]
Prerequisites: Improved Flurry of Blows, Flurry of Blows attack bonus +11
Benefit: When using the Flurry of Blows, you gain an extra attack at a -10 penalty. With this feat, the monk's Flurry of Blows progression is as follows:

[color=white]
Lvl    Attack Bonus
--     --
15th   +11/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1/+1
16th   +12/+12/+12/+7/+7/+2/+2
17th   +12/+12/+12/+7/+7/+2/+2
--     --
18th   +13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3
19th   +14/+14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4
20th   +15/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5
[/color]

Perfect Flurry of Blows [Epic]
Prerequisites: Improved Flurry of Blows, Greater Flurry of Blows, Flurry of Blows attack bonus +16
Benefit: When using the Flurry of Blows, you gain two extra attacks, one at a -5 penalty and one at a -10 penalty. A 21st level monk using the Flurry of Blows attacks at +16/+16/+16/+11/+11/+11/+6/+6/+6.

Now, given the fact that all these bonus attacks can potentally use the monk's unarmed damage and full strength bonus, I need a way to weaken these feats somewhat. An attack penalty that applies to all attacks might be appropriate, but it complicates things, because it means that a monk's Flurry attack bonus could be lower with the feat than without, and I'm not sure I want that. So, I'm open to ideas.

 

[Mordane76]

Ugh...

I see where you're going with this, and while I partially agree, I partially don't. In all honesty, I think the monk is getting a leg up in 3.5E with the changes to Flurry. Gone is the clunk table with two attack bonuses, and also gone with are those pointless last attacks at like +3 which will never freakin' hit.

However, it is a little hokey that TWF can outpace the monk. It would be nice to make a way for him to keep pace, but there should be a penalty of some sort. Maybe allow the monk access to the TWF feats for additional attacks, using their prereqs and their penalties to get them?

 

[green slime]

Take this route and no monk player will ever look different from another, because then these feats will become prerequisite to becoming an efficient monk.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Don't forget that monks can be a little ahead of TWF's in terms of damage because (a) their fists use big damage dice and (b) they get full Str on all attacks.

I can see where you are coming from though. But hey, multiple thrashes is all a TWF has going for him at the moment! Also, the monk is able to spend feats on other things that they TWF guy is spending on his TWF. That could be dodge + mobility + spring attack, and in a duel the TWF never gets to land more than one attack on him.

I know that isn't the main issue that you are wanting to address here, but thought it was worth mentioning.

Cheers

 

[Bean 2.0]

if you have unapproachable east a monk/shou disciple can get two-weapon fighting and the full allotment of unarmed attacks in exchange for some damage dice in unarmed strikes and high level monk abilities (also you might want to see the lightning fists feat in sword and fist)

Of course whats keeping the monk from using its special monk weapons (i favor the kama or tonfa myself) in addition to unarmed as long as the manufactured weapon is off-hand, ok so with flury thats six then 5 more attacks with each kama so 16 attacks compared to the 8 of a twf

 

[Mordane76]

if you have unapproachable east a monk/shou disciple can get two-weapon fighting and the full allotment of unarmed attacks in exchange for some damage dice in unarmed strikes and high level monk abilities (also you might want to see the lightning fists feat in sword and fist)

Of course whats keeping the monk from using its special monk weapons (i favor the kama or tonfa myself) in addition to unarmed as long as the manufactured weapon is off-hand, ok so with flury thats six then 5 more attacks with each kama so 16 attacks compared to the 8 of a twf

Could you please post a page reference that says monk special weapons can be used "off-hand" and you get attacks for your flurry AND your weapon. IIRC, the monk's weapons can be used AS PART OF a flurry, not alongside a flurry... unless this monk has an extra arm coming out of his chest.

 

[Bean 2.0]

a monk gets 5 attacks normally since kamas are monk weapons they get 5 attacks each the unarmed gets 6 six if you use flurry, 7 with lightning fists, not to mention speed weapons, extra limbs or haste

 

[MarauderX]

Could you please post a page reference that says monk special weapons can be used "off-hand" and you get attacks for your flurry AND your weapon. IIRC, the monk's weapons can be used AS PART OF a flurry, not alongside a flurry... unless this monk has an extra arm coming out of his chest.

Yeah, I don't think it says anywhere that you get unarmed attacks IN ADDITION TO weapon attacks, at least not in OA, Sword & Fist or the PHB.
However, the PHB states that monks don't have an "off-hand" and can attack with either hand equally. Then again, this is the House Rules forum, so anything goes I suppose...

 

[Bean 2.0]

it says monks cannot use unarmed strikes as off hand there is no rule saying a monk cannot make unarmed attacks with its feet knees or head so it can use its hands for other weapons now i may be wrong anout being able to use this with monk weapons and get full monk bab with the weapons but you could still get more than a two weapon fighter even with the kamas only getting 3 attacks each