Monks & Weapons & Powers, oh my

[mneme]

Er, "non-implement level weapon"? What?

I'm not repeating my answer to 2, the way you repeated your claim. It's ok if not all of a class's features work together, they can be compelmentary instead.

4e doesn't really make weapons and gear less important; it removes the -disparity- of gear and weapons that existed in 3/3.5. Rather than having Wizards (who care only about stat-boost items and miscelaneous weapons) and monks (the same, as you remember them; I remember most monks using monk weapons as they could, as they had enhancement bonuses) as well as fighters (who have 1/3+ of their effectiveness bound into their gear) and artificers (er, um, yeah), everyone cares most about three items -- attack slot, armor, and neck (with some classes needing a second attack slot item).

Monks have a lot of choices, but they're interesting choices. A monk who finds a weapon they're proficient in can use it as an implement as well as a weapon -- so a monk may find themselves using a lot of different weapons during their career. But except when the monk needs/wants magical properties that can only be associated with a weapon, the monks is easily best with a magical ki focus, as this allows a monk to not only use it for implement powers, but also use it with thrown weapons, ranged weapons (which, remember, are very effective for every monk, as they're a dex based class), unarmed strikes, reach weapons (not proficient, but you use what you got), etc.

 

[1of3]

3) As a whole, this seems counter to the 4Ed design goal of making items & gear less important. In previous editions, it was nearly pointless for Monks to use their weapons. Now, there are many reasons for them to seek out implements in preference to their unarmed strikes.

You want to have a "ki-focus". That's a type of implement monks can use, and you do not have to weild them. It's in PHB3.

So with a ki-focus you can have empty hands, while using your monk powers.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

You're right, weapon does not matter.

However, magical weapon properties, powers, critical hit damage bonuses, etc. DO matter when you're not using a Ki Focus.

Er, "non-implement level weapon"? What?

Lets see if I can make expressing my confusion clearer (again, apologies because I don't have my books in front of me).

1) Everyone agrees that weapons don't matter when using implement powers, right? Then what good does a magic weapon do for a monk since they don't work with implement powers?

2) I have no idea what you mean by the abbreviation "OAs."

3) The fact that a monk's weapons matter when using multiclass weapon powers still makes them useless...or pointless...when you're not multiclassing the PC.

4) I'm struggling with the rationale for making the Monk's iconic ability- unarmed combat- irrelevant with so many of their powers.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

You want to have a "ki-focus". That's a type of implement monks can use, and you do not have to weild them. It's in PHB3.

So with a ki-focus you can have empty hands, while using your monk powers.

Yeah, I got that...but you obviously don't start with one. IOW, it seems you have a basic, starting class ability that is nerfed until you manage to acquire one.

IF you actually manage to do so.

 

[DracoSuave]

Lets see if I can make expressing my confusion clearer (again, apologies because I don't have my books in front of me).

1) Everyone agrees that weapons don't matter when using implement powers, right? Then what good does a magic weapon do for a monk since they don't work with implement powers?

Well, a weapon doesn't matter because the damage of a weapon, the traits of a weapon (versatile, high crit), and the proficiency bonus do not matter to a monk.

A magic weapon matters because you do get it's properties, critical hit bonus, and powers. These things can be used with implement powers (unless they specifically mention otherwise.)

2) I have no idea what you mean by the abbreviation "OAs."

Opportunity attacks.

3) The fact that a monk's weapons matter when using multiclass weapon powers still makes them useless...or pointless...when you're not multiclassing the PC.

For non-basic attacks, yes. However, they still matter for Basic Attacks.

4) I'm struggling with the rationale for making the Monk's iconic ability- unarmed combat- irrelevant with so many of their powers.

Their powers -are- unarmed combat techniques bolstered by the use of psionic power. Don't read it like a list of spells, but like a series of different unarmed strikes, and it's not so bad.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Ok...NOW I think I have it. Thanks, y'all!

 

[sev]

[nvm.]

 

[DracoSuave]

Yeah, I got that...but you obviously don't start with one. IOW, it seems you have a basic, starting class ability that is nerfed until you manage to acquire one.

IF you actually manage to do so.

1) It's no more nerfed than any implement user is until they get their first magic implement (or go superior). Wizards, Warlocks, and all have had no problems, and monks are no different in that regard.

2) Unlike wizards, warlocks, and such, monks can use either a magic weapon OR a ki focus, which would give them more flexibility if the DM randomly drops items.

Which, of course, isn't what is recommended in 4e. Chances are, if your a monk who wants/needs a ki focus, you'll find it or be able to buy it by level 3 or so.

 

[Obryn]

Ok...NOW I think I have it. Thanks, y'all!

Yeah, monks are a bit confusing.

For what it's worth, there was an earlier draft of Monk which mixed Weapon and Implement powers. It had a few problems, though. The Implement-Only monk has a few weird points, too, mostly relating to their ability to use any weapon as an implement. But, it works a whole lot better, overall.

It's a pretty clever way, IMO, to give the Monk a variety of both powers that do a lot of damage (like Open the Gates of Battle) and ones which do lower damage, but have fun effects.

-O

 

[IanB]

Well, a weapon doesn't matter because the damage of a weapon, the traits of a weapon (versatile, high crit), and the proficiency bonus do not matter to a monk.

A magic weapon matters because you do get it's properties, critical hit bonus, and powers. These things can be used with implement powers (unless they specifically mention otherwise.)

And the enhancement bonus, since monks can use their weapons as implements. You're not stuck carrying a weapon and a ki focus, unless you want to be.