Monster Alignment

[ProfessorCirno]

Good dragons are anime.

I mean it. Good dragons come from Chinese myth. The concept of the dragon in Western myth is 100% evil, they represent greed and the devil.

Get your anime out of my traditional Western fantasy, Gary.

How did I miss this?

Good dragons are always 100% asian? You know, one of my great grandfathers, rest his soul, was Welsh. I'd like to think that, on hearing that, he'd laugh loud and hard at (not with) you for a good amount of time. Of course, he was Welsh, and as a traditional dour Welshman, he'd probably just glare at you for a very uncomfortable amount of time.

Alternate response!

You know what I see when I look at fighters and paladins? Let's look. Oh hey, a character who's represented purely by 1) his mastery over a weapon, or 2) his complete servility and dedication to his lord. They also wear highly decorative armor if you look at the armor illustrations, and they focus typically on just that one weapon of theirs. Know what fighters and paladins are? Samurai. God, Gary, get your eastern crap out of my western mythology!

 

[Obryn]

Secondly, this topic doesn't really make sense. When a big change is made, you have to defend the reasons for making the change. You don't demand others to give you reasons not to change something. Change for the sake of change is dumb. And yes, count me in as someone who finds zero excitement in having yet another dragon statblock to through at the enemy. Monster Manual is now "Book of Stats to Kill."

So you've missed the parts where people have posted why they think Unaligned metallic dragons might, in fact, be better for the game?

Also, yet again, conflict <> killing.

-O

 

[ryryguy]

Wait, what? The PH specifically says that the evil alignment is not for player characters. That's what I'm talking about.

If I'm DM of a group of random people for a one-shot and I say, "make characters using the options in the Player's Handbook", then evil characters are not one of those options. It's not a huge deal, but I do like that I don't have to specifically say "and no evil characters!" (If I don't mind evil characters, I don't mind having to specifically say, "Evil characters are ok.")

 

[ProfessorCirno]

But is there rule support for evil PCs that you feel is lacking? Maybe I have a blind spot here, but it seems like you don't need a bunch of rules from WotC for that. Instead, you need some conversation about expectations, boundaries, and perhaps ground rules that will be specific to your group and your campaign. WotC can't provide that.

Well, as was stated earlier, there are no good monsters. There are - to my knowledge, this might've changed - no feats for evil clerics, either. Lastly, there haven't been any of the more traditional forms of evil magic made available (again, I could be wrong there), like necromancy. There are others, those are just the three off the top of my head.

 

[ryryguy]

Well, as was stated earlier, there are no good monsters. There are - to my knowledge, this might've changed - no feats for evil clerics, either. Lastly, there haven't been any of the more traditional forms of evil magic made available (again, I could be wrong there), like necromancy. There are others, those are just the three off the top of my head.

A partial answer to those concerns is that there is room for only so many monsters, feats, etc. There are inevitably going to be gaps as far as supporting specific styles of play.

As far as lack of good monsters, well, there's gold dragons, unicorns, couatl, angels... That was pretty much my original point, if you're diverging from the default by incorporating evil PCs, you might as well diverge from the default alignments for these beasties. But I suppose it's a fair point that there are fewer of the traditionally good beasties being provided overall (no matter what their official alignments).

I think a lack of evil cleric feats and other "evil" magic is maybe your most telling point, basically because of 4e's split between PC and NPC/monster mechanics. Unfortunately you can't lift a feature from an evil NPC cleric and paste it directly onto an evil PC cleric. You can get a fair amount of mileage out of some simple reskinning, at least - swap necrotic for radiant, etc. That's actually mentioned in one of the core books (DMG I think).

But again, WotC can only cover so much ground. It's a loss to groups that do enjoy having evil PCs, but as I've stated, I do think there are some sound reasons behind the decision not to cover that ground.

 

[Doug McCrae]

How did I miss this?

Good dragons are always 100% asian? You know, one of my great grandfathers, rest his soul, was Welsh. I'd like to think that, on hearing that, he'd laugh loud and hard at (not with) you for a good amount of time. Of course, he was Welsh, and as a traditional dour Welshman, he'd probably just glare at you for a very uncomfortable amount of time.

Oh, ok then, in deference to your dead great grandad I'll amend my claim.

The concept of the dragon in Western myth is 99% evil, they represent greed and the devil. And Wales.

Good dragons are still anime and if you like them that means you play Yu-Gi-Oh. The turning into human form power of gold and silver dragons also comes from Eastern mythology.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Every time I insult someone in a thread, I put on a fluffy tutu and pirouette around my living room! I like to cuddle Baby Tippytoes, my favorite My Little Pony, when I do. She helps remind me that moderators get tired of always telling someone to think before posting and not to insult people.

 

[Obryn]

*snip quote* -Darkness

EDIT: Naaah, that one's too easy. I'll retroactively pass on the obvious snarky comment.

-O

 

[Agamon]

I agree that change for the sake of change is dumb. But change to increase options for the sake of the majority in favor of the minority is smart.

 

[Piratecat]

Every time I insult someone in a thread, I put on a fluffy tutu and pirouette around my living room...

Cirno, don't you think it's about time you stopped insulting people? And Doug -- please cut back the snark about dead relatives as well.

Carry on with the thread, folks.