D&D 5E Monster Creation rules: Anyone else not find them particularly helpful.

Corpsetaker

First Post
The title says it all.

I'm trying to create a unique Hill Giant Ghast and the monster creation rules in the DMG do not really help.

I'm trying to make the creature a challenge rating 16 and it's not going very well.

Anyone else share this opinion?
 

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Xeviat

Hero
I love the monster creation guidelines.

You want it to be CR 16. Is it meant to be a solo fight or as part of a group? Is it more offensive or defensive?

Let's say you want it to be a solo. It's going to face a much lower party. You'll want to make its offensive power more spread out and possibly use legendary actions. I would tilt towards a defense focused monster, say CR 18 Defense but CR 14 offense. Subtract 2-4 AC and add 15-30 HP; you don't want it's AC to be too high to take hits.

I'm away from my books right now. I can come back later and show how to reverse build a monster.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 


dave2008

Legend
The title says it all.

I'm trying to create a unique Hill Giant Ghast and the monster creation rules in the DMG do not really help.

I'm trying to make the creature a challenge rating 16 and it's not going very well.

Anyone else share this opinion?

No, I find the guidelines work well in general. Don't forget to adjust for resistances / immunities & "features."

I've got a spread sheet that helps with calculating CR if your interested.
 



Corpsetaker

First Post
I love the monster creation guidelines. You want it to be CR 16. Is it meant to be a solo fight or as part of a group? Is it more offensive or defensive? Let's say you want it to be a solo. It's going to face a much lower party. You'll want to make its offensive power more spread out and possibly use legendary actions. I would tilt towards a defense focused monster, say CR 18 Defense but CR 14 offense. Subtract 2-4 AC and add 15-30 HP; you don't want it's AC to be too high to take hits. I'm away from my books right now. I can come back later and show how to reverse build a monster. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
My main concern is getting the right damage for claw and bite attacks without making him too easy and just a bag of HP. I don't like the DMG's approach of trial and error. I want more steamlined monster building rules instead of the "fly by the seat of your trousers" ones. I'm not looking for him to be a solo per se, he is always followed by a pack of orc ghouls.
 

They're better for making a monster and then finding the CR rather than aiming for a set CR and then making a monster.
I love them personally. I dig separating offensive from defensive CR.

Now, a hill giant is CR 5. So increasing them by 11 steps is a big jump. And, really, once you get above CR 13 or so things start to get fuzy. There's just so many more variables at that level that what can almost TPK one party is a cakewalk for others.

Going up to 30 Hit Dice would be about right. Or 20-25 and increase its Constitution.
It should be doing 5 greatclub attacks to hit the expected damage. But, it could instead make sweeping arcs that hit 2-3 creatures. An attack that launches a creature away would also be cool (dealing extra damage if the target hits a wall or another creature).

As a ghast, it could also grab people when it hits with a claw, gaining a bonus to hit with subsequent bites and dealing extra damage. That can give some high damage spikes that can really hurt, but are avoidable by smart players.
 

Quickleaf

Legend
My main concern is getting the right damage for claw and bite attacks without making him too easy and just a bag of HP. I don't like the DMG's approach of trial and error. I want more steamlined monster building rules instead of the "fly by the seat of your trousers" ones. I'm not looking for him to be a solo per se, he is always followed by a pack of orc ghouls.

Describe the player party to me? #s? Average level? How optimized? How skilled are the players? Do they have a cleric with Turn Undead?

Is the hill giant ghast to be encountered solo or with other monsters? Should it be legendary?

Off the top of my head: Combining a Hill Giant (CR 5) and a Ghast (CR 2) – applying a "ghast" template if you will – seems orders of magnitude weaker than a CR 16 creature. CR 16 would be a mummy lord, an adult blue dragon, an iron golem, or a marilith. Nothing wrong with changing the narrative, but if your PCs later fight an adult blue dragon and the players think "this was about as hard as fighting that ghast hill giant", then that says something about your world. So, there's a world-building element to this as well. For example, instead of describing it as a hill giant ghast, you might devise a world-specific undead giant (e.g. in Al-Qadim this would be "rom") which haunts very specific crypts in the desolate wilderness...they're believed to be myths by most living, except for a few elves who recall their forefathers fighting the giants and cursing them.

Specific example... you'll notice this is a mostly straight translation of the concept with greatly exaggerated HP, and even then attaining CR 14 is about the highest I could stretch the concept. To take it that next step to CR 16 you'll either need to inflate numbers, and/or start adding new abilities/traits/actions to the concept, and/or make it legendary.

Hill Giant Ghast
Huge undead giant, chaotic evil
AC 15 (natural armor)
HP 248 (24d12+92)
Speed 40 ft

STR 22 (+6) DEX 14 (+2) CON 19 (+4) INT 7 (-2) WIS 9 (-1) CHA 6 (-2)

Damage Resistances necrotic
Damage Immunities poison
Condition Immunities charmed, exhaustion, poisoned

Skills Perception +4
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 14
Language Giant
Challenge 14 (11,500 XP)

Horrific Stench. Any creature that starts its turn within 15 feet of the hill giant ghast must succeed on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or be poisoned until the start of its next turn. On a successful saving throw, the creature is immune to Horrific Stench for 24 hours. If a creature fails its saving throw by 5 or more, it falls prone and is incapacitated while it is poisoned in this way.

Turning Defiance. The hill giant ghast, and any ghouls or ghasts within 30 feet of it, have advantage on saving throws against effects that turn undead.

ACTIONS

Multiatttack. The hill giant ghast makes one bite attack and two claw attacks. It may replace any of its claw attacks with rock throws or grapple attempts.

Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +11 to hit, reach 5 ft., one creature. Hit: 34 (6d8+6) piercing damage. Against an incapacitated target or a target grappled by the hill giant ghast, a bite attack is an automatic critical hit. If this bite reduces a creature to 0 hit points or less, the hill giant ghast tears off one of the creature's limbs and devours it.

Claws. Melee Weapon Attack: +11 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 27 (6d6+6) slashing damage. If the target is a creature other than an undead, it must succeed on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or be paralyzed for 1 minute. The target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success.

Rock. Ranged Weapon Attack: +11 to hit, range 60/240 ft., one target. Hit: 22 (3d10+6) bludgeoning damage.

------

Quick monster maths...

Defensive CR = 13
248 hp >> CR 12 base
Effective AC 19 = AC 15 + 4 due to Horrifying Stench >> bump CR up 1

Offensive CR = 15
Damage-per-round 88 = 34 + 27 +27 >> CR 14
Effective attack +11 >> bump CR up 1

Total CR = 14 = (13 + 15) / 2
 
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It could probably also have swallow whole. That could be fun.

And ghasts/ ghouls are always shown with those giant tongues. You can totally picture a giant sized ghast using that tongue to trapple a creature.
 

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