Monsters are more than their stats

Re: the aboleth thing.

There are only two ways a character could say something like "But aboleth's can't control people from this far away!"

1. The character learned this in game. If that's the case, then there's no problem. There's no need for an automatic baseline because the DM gave the character the answer actually in use in that actual campaign.

2. The player read the monster manual and is assuming that his character knows this piece of out of character information. This is NOT acceptable without DM permission. Even if the character has like 20 ranks in Knowledge: Stuff about Aboleths, the player should still be checking with the DM rather than bringing in information himself. And while I think it might be an interesting campaign to run a mystery type setting where the information in the Monster Manual was open to PCs and the players were trying to solve the mystery by using the MM as a reference book, I don't think the whole game should be designed that way just because someone might try to do that. I think its more reasonable to assume that things get handled the normal way- in game information, adjusted and filtered by the DM.

In any case, when being concerned about the baseline of information your players hold, its usually best to make that baseline a genre rather than encyclopedic knowledge of aboleth behavior. Robin Laws explains it best. Teach your players what kind of movie they're in. Then make sure that your game conforms to the expectations of that movie. Are you in a Hong Kong kung fu flick? Then the solution to aboleths is probably a massive brawl that leaves half the city leveled. Are you in a in a cthuloid horror flick? Then the solution to aboleths is to run far away screaming. Teach the players the genre, and they'll fill in the details without you having to go through the rather risky process of assuming that your players can derive the species of a creature using mental control from the radius of its mind powers without the use of in character knowledge placed in the game by the DM.
 

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Derren said:
Nothing in D&D, even in 3E is really rigid. The DM can always change things without anyone arresting him.

You obviously haven't wrangled with the WotC Ninjas!


I can't tell you how many times when we veered from RAW, they would rappell from my living room ceiling and force us all to play "properly".
 
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Steely Dan said:
You obviously haven't wrangled with the WotC Ninjas!


I can't tell you how many times when we veered from RAW, they would repel from my living room ceiling and force us all to play "properly".
Mostly because the number is 0.

But the number of times that they've rappelled from your ceiling...

(oh buggrem. This is going to turn into another rogue/rouge//lose/loose thing, isn't it... oh noes!)
 


Lackhand said:
Mostly because the number is 0.

But the number of times that they've rappelled from your ceiling...

(oh buggrem. This is going to turn into another rogue/rouge//lose/loose thing, isn't it... oh noes!)

That would be oh nose!!! :bmelee: :D
 


Cadfan said:
Re: the aboleth thing.

2. The player read the monster manual and is assuming that his character knows this piece of out of character information. This is NOT acceptable without DM permission. Even if the character has like 20 ranks in Knowledge: Stuff about Aboleths, the player should still be checking with the DM rather than bringing in information himself. And while I think it might be an interesting campaign to run a mystery type setting where the information in the Monster Manual was open to PCs and the players were trying to solve the mystery by using the MM as a reference book, I don't think the whole game should be designed that way just because someone might try to do that. I think its more reasonable to assume that things get handled the normal way- in game information, adjusted and filtered by the DM.

.

This raises an interesting question about metagaming.

How the hell does anyone in the campaign world know the limits of an aboleth's mind-control? More importantly, how do they know the limits of mind control for this *specific* aboleth? The same thing goes for many of the outsider/far realm beasties. I don't think aboleths wrote down in a book somewhere their exact powers....

For example, in our world, the vast,vast majority of adult people can't run the 100 meters under 20 seconds. Yet every 4 years, we get at least a 10 people that can clock in under half the time and about a hundred more that can do in under 11s

I still say the big problem is what another poster alluded to and that's the reliance on magic. A succubus has the time (she's immortal), she has the looks (she can shapeshift), she's got the skills (Bluff,Diplomacy and probably more sexual secrets/techniques that you can shake a tail at) and she's got the powers (judicious use of Charm and Dominate), yet she can't control the king without a specific magic ritual/spell?
 

We know that a Succubus CAN control a country.

We don't know necessarily HOW, but I ask: Is there any situation where the how is important?

It's obviously a long-term thing (the short-term ones are, after all, combat skills), through long term use of charisma skills, short-term domination and charming, and whatever, she gains enough influence to be a puppetmaster. That's basically what you get out of reading the fluff. Maybe she has a specific ritual she performs to take full control over the king, but what that ritual actually is really only matters if the party happens upon it while it's occuring. Possibly in the King's bedroom.

At that point it becomes a story event, and a story event is entirely within the DM's job to come up with unless they're using pre-made adventures. If you want to have your characters busting into a king's bedroom mid 'ritual', the rules support that. If you want to have your characters busting into the Succubus's lair while she's drinking goat's blood in order to strengthen her hold on the king, the rules support that too.

However, if you want to say that the king is under control as per the combat rules of the succubus, it doesn't really make sense. As well it shouldn't. It isn't combat.

WHAT an encounter is, HOW it runs, these things can be told you by the rules, but no rulebook is going to tell you outright WHY a given encounter is supposed to happen. Otherwise you're basically taking the DM out of the equation.
 

I wonder if ninjas abseil instead of rapell. :)

Originally Posted by Derren
Nothing in D&D, even in 3E is really rigid. The DM can always change things without anyone arresting him.

True story. I once had a player get all sorts of angry because I used a wyvern in the wrong terrain. :uhoh:

But, I do agree with you. Sure the DM can change things. But, again, we're talking about having to wade through yards of crap in order to figure out what to change. For example, the 3e Succubus has Suggestion. But, also, her kiss works as a Suggestion spell, but only to make the victim give you another kiss.

Umm, what?

Why not just give her the Suggestion SLA? Cast Suggestion to make someone give you lots of kisses. There, end of story. Instead, we have a wonky mechanic that makes an exception out of Suggestion in that it ONLY makes you give the Succubus ONE more kiss.

I can understand people getting uptight about stripping away stuff from creatures, but, when you look at it, does this REALLY need to be there? Do you really need a separate Suggestion ability? Does it specifically HAVE to be Suggestion, considering there are a million other spells out there that you could do? What if the succubus kisses someone in a silence spell? What if the target is deaf? Oh, and now we HAVE to add on the Tongue's ability so that the Kiss ability always works.

Or, do you go the 4e route. You make specific mechanics for that specific action and let DM's move beyond that if they want to.
 

webrunner said:
We know that a Succubus CAN control a country.

We don't know necessarily HOW, but I ask: Is there any situation where the how is important?

1. The PCs want to break the control the Succubus has over the country.
2. The PCs have allied/bargained with a Succubus to gain control of a country
3. The PCs dominate/blackmail/force the Succubus to gain control over a country and do what they tell her.
4. The PCs suspect that the country is under the control of a Succubus and want to investigate.

If you want to keep the game consistent (for example when the PCs had previous encounters with Succubi) its important that the DM knows how this works.
 
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