D&D 5E Monsters of Many Names - Wandering Monsters (Yugoloth!)

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Don't need them -- I'm not such and OCD completist that I need a monster or character class to fill out each space on an alignment chart.

 

[Hussar]

/snip

3e just didn't go into as elaborate detail, but heck, if you look at the 3e MotP there are some portions that are virtually word for word from 2e sources (some of the dreamscapes in the Ethereal plane), most of the locations originated in Planescape, etc. They didn't use Sigilian cant slang, but the lore was retained in very large part./snip

Thus the whole, "minor books that I could entirely ignore" part of my discussion. You can have all the Planescape stuff you want. Just keep it out of the core. I hope you get a big, beautiful boxed set and tons of supplements.

But, in return, I want zero references to any Planescape elements in the core. Same way as there are zero references to Eberron or Forgotten Realms.

That means no Blood War, no Factions, and any planar creature has to be able to stand on its own. Yuguloths are mercenaries? Mercenaries in what war? Take away the Blood War and now Demons and Devils no longer fight each other an no longer need NE mercenaries.

Sure, we can add other schticks, and this thread shows that. Unfortunately, all that's been done is show that many gamers are really creative people.

 

[Hussar]

Unfortunately that wouldn't work, as the 'loths have an innate hatred of gods, and that role would contradict a lot of their schtick. While they'll work for them if it fits their own plans and the price is right, they'll never do it as servants as opposed to mercenaries, and at no point will they ever have faith in one of those divinities.

I'd personally prefer just a lot more unique servitors for specific evil gods, highlighting the lack of trust and unity among evil compared to angels/aasimon as collective servitors of good gods, without depriving evil gods of servitors of their own (and not having to rely exclusively on demons/devils/etc since those have their own goals and priorities that would be diminished by being primarily servitors to gods).

And, right here. THIS is what I'm talking about. "Loth's have an innate hatred of gods"? Where does that come from? It's not in the Monster Manual entry. It's not in the article here that we're reading. So, exactly where does this come from?

 

[Weather Report]

Thus the whole, "minor books that I could entirely ignore" part of my discussion. You can have all the Planescape stuff you want. Just keep it out of the core. I hope you get a big, beautiful boxed set and tons of supplements.

But, in return, I want zero references to any Planescape elements in the core. Same way as there are zero references to Eberron or Forgotten Realms.

That means no Blood War, no Factions, and any planar creature has to be able to stand on its own. Yuguloths are mercenaries? Mercenaries in what war? Take away the Blood War and now Demons and Devils no longer fight each other an no longer need NE mercenaries.

Sure, we can add other schticks, and this thread shows that. Unfortunately, all that's been done is show that many gamers are really creative people.

I totally agree that Planescape (which I love) should not be core, there should be several ways to present the planes, and encourage you to make your own cosmologies.

And it's easy to apply Planescape to the World Axis cosmology (no more great ring, all the outer planes are astral dominions in the astral Sea, the elemental planes merge into the elemental chaos) if you want to mix the two.

Did the Ethereal plane finally show up 4th Ed in Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium or what-have-you?

 

[Weather Report]

And, right here. THIS is what I'm talking about. "Loth's have an innate hatred of gods"? Where does that come from? It's not in the Monster Manual entry. It's not in the article here that we're reading. So, exactly where does this come from?

I believe 2nd Ed Planescape material (Faces of Evil: The Fiends, etc).

 

[Shemeska]

Thus the whole, "minor books that I could entirely ignore" part of my discussion.

It's in the 3.5 DMG as well in pretty decent abbreviated fashion. You can completely ignore it or any other cosmology presented in the core, but to an extent, some cosmology has to be there in bare-bones format to give some sort of context to planar monsters. You can prefer the 4e World Axis certainly, that's your choice which is just as valid as mine, but the Great Wheel has a lot of history as a D&D trope so at least to me if you're going to present a model, that's the one to go with. It has been part of the core game since AD&D. Space considerations are probably going to preclude giving multiple model cosmologies, but it's probably important to note explicitly that you can and perhaps should tailor cosmology to fit your own games rather than feel bound to a specific one.

A MotP could fully flesh out one model and present multiple others as well as provide tools to creating them. That's how I'd handle it.

That means no Blood War, no Factions, and any planar creature has to be able to stand on its own. Yuguloths are mercenaries? Mercenaries in what war? Take away the Blood War and now Demons and Devils no longer fight each other an no longer need NE mercenaries.

The mercenary aspect isn't by any means all that the 'loths have going for them, as many people in this thread have elaborated upon it, both with material that has been presented about the 'loths in print before, and elaborations of their own. They existed before the Blood War, and even after the Blood War was created, it was stated pretty bluntly that the Blood War was a means to an end, or even just treading water on their part, not their major focus or their ultimate goal.

I think that they're just as useful and occupy a thematic niche of their own alongside demons and devils, you don't have to agree with me, but a decent number of people seem to think so.

 

[Shemeska]

And, right here. THIS is what I'm talking about. "Loth's have an innate hatred of gods"? Where does that come from? It's not in the Monster Manual entry. It's not in the article here that we're reading. So, exactly where does this come from?

2e Planescape. The best details come from the subchapter 'The Godless Yugoloths' in Hellbound: The Blood War.

As for why it isn't in the article? I truly can't say, but the article is relatively shallow on many details, concentrating more on some mechanics and how many arms mezzoloths and nycaloths should have* rather than the history, mythology, and motivations of the 'loths from many 2e and 3e sources. I think the latter is more important myself, but again, YMMV.

*(I kinda like the 4 arms version that arose admittedly so in 3e from a misinterpretation on the art order and stuck around thereafter)

 

[Orius]

That means no Blood War, no Factions, and any planar creature has to be able to stand on its own. Yuguloths are mercenaries? Mercenaries in what war? Take away the Blood War and now Demons and Devils no longer fight each other an no longer need NE mercenaries.

There's no reason to dump the Blood War entirely, I mean you could keep the idea that demons and devils are mortal enemies, and thus a PC could try (the very dangerous tactic of) summoning one when an enemy summons or is allied with another for example. But you don't need any details on the Blood War itself, hell you don't even need to mention it. Yet this approach doesn't contradict anything that already exists, and also gives creative freedom to the DMs who want it. It's also useful in a logical metagame way -- if demons and devils are chummy, why bother distinguishing between the two, why not just call all of them demons and be done with it?

Yugoloths have two elements to them both related to the mercenary angle: the lesser yuogloths at least are summoning fodder, and they serve as mercenaries in the Blood War while secetly manipulating the conflict to their own nefarious ends. Neither of these are necessary in core D&D, and thus the 'loths themselves are unnecessary. Just let PCs and villains summon whatever demons and devils they need, and the whole Blood War metaplot isn't relevant in a campaign that isn't using it in anyway. Yugoloths can probably be left out of 5e core to save space, especially since the game has nearly 40 years worth of material to be winnowed through. Yugoloths just aren't enough of a sacred cow to warrent cutting something that is.

 

[GX.Sigma]

But, in return, I want zero references to any Planescape elements in the core. Same way as there are zero references to Eberron or Forgotten Realms.

I don't agree. It makes perfect sense for the Tiefling entry to say they're common in Sigil, just as it makes perfect sense for the Minotaur entry to say they're common in Krynn. Much like how the playtest packet presents the player options, I think the best approach is to say "this is how these creatures fit into some classic D&D settings," with a heavily implied "but you don't have to do it like that your setting!"

Besides, it's practically impossible to describe planar creatures in any detail without referencing Planescape, since Planescape added so much detail to planar content that was only vaguely described in 1e.

 

[Hussar]

I don't agree. It makes perfect sense for the Tiefling entry to say they're common in Sigil, just as it makes perfect sense for the Minotaur entry to say they're common in Krynn. Much like how the playtest packet presents the player options, I think the best approach is to say "this is how these creatures fit into some classic D&D settings," with a heavily implied "but you don't have to do it like that your setting!"

Besides, it's practically impossible to describe planar creatures in any detail without referencing Planescape, since Planescape added so much detail to planar content that was only vaguely described in 1e.

But, a Krynnish minotaur is completely different from a standard D&D minotaur. Other than appearance, they share nothing. Standard minotaur are not sailors and pirates. So, why would you start mentioning Krynn in a core D&D book? Why bring up a setting that hasn't been in print by the primary publisher in about twenty years? No skin off of MWP. They did a fantastic job with Dragonlance, but, I really don't think bringing up 3PP settings in a core 5e book is a particularly good idea.

It's very, very easy to not reference Planescape. Tieflings, as a perfect example. 4e shows exactly how it can be done, but, even if you want to make it more generic than that, you go with the "demonic bloodline" angle and be done with it.

There is nothing in the description of demons or devils that even remotely needs anything like a Blood War. There's no reason why Sigil needs to ever be mentioned, same as you never mention Karameikos. It's not exactly tricky.

Like I said, I hope that Planescape fans get huge, beautiful boxed sets with tons of material. Fantastic. Just please, keep your chocolate out of my peanut butter.

That means zero references to the Blood War, Factions, or Sigil or the Lady of Pain outside of direct material for Planescape. For some reason it's not terribly difficult to not reference Ravenloft when discussing undead. We can talk about Dragons all day long without bringing up Council of Wyrms. Yet, for some bizarre reason, we have to stick with a bunch of canon that was never core in any edition. Where any deviation from that canon brings up all sorts of complaints, judging the material not on its merits but on how well it fits within one very minor product line.