D&D 5E Monsters of Many Names - Wandering Monsters (Yugoloth!)

[Weather Report]

Yet, for some bizarre reason, we have to stick with a bunch of canon that was never core in any edition.

That's not true; 1st Ed PHB, DMG, MM, MM 2, Deities & Demigods, Manual of the Planes. Planescape just slathered the core D&D Multiverse with the whole Sigil/Factions/Lady of Pain/slang, etc, sauce.

 

[Hussar]

That's not true; 1st Ed PHB, DMG, MM, MM 2, Deities & Demigods, Manual of the Planes. Planescape just slathered the core D&D Multiverse with the whole Sigil/Factions/Lady of Pain/slang, etc, sauce.

What?

Sigil doesn't appear until 1994. Factions and all of that don't appear until 2e.

There is Great Wheel Cosmology in 1e books. Totally agree there. But, there is nothing about Planescape in any of those books.

Just to be straight here, I have nothing against the Great Wheel. It's Planescape that I find grating. Mostly its being forced to incorporate Planescape lore into the core cosmology just to pander to a very vocal group of gamers.

 

[RichGreen]

Like I said, I hope that Planescape fans get huge, beautiful boxed sets with tons of material. Fantastic. Just please, keep your chocolate out of my peanut butter.

That means zero references to the Blood War, Factions, or Sigil or the Lady of Pain outside of direct material for Planescape. For some reason it's not terribly difficult to not reference Ravenloft when discussing undead. We can talk about Dragons all day long without bringing up Council of Wyrms. Yet, for some bizarre reason, we have to stick with a bunch of canon that was never core in any edition. Where any deviation from that canon brings up all sorts of complaints, judging the material not on its merits but on how well it fits within one very minor product line.

I'm not sure whether this has been mentioned upthread, but the Blood War was actually introduced in MC 8 The Outer Planes Monstrous Compendium Appendix, not Planescape, and that's also when names like baatezu, tanar'ri and yugoloth first appeared too.

Cheers


Rich

 

[Weather Report]

I know, Planescape is just the Core D&D Multiverse with Sigil/Factions/The Lady of Pain as window-dressing, etc, I thought I made that clear, I agree that part of it is like any other campaign setting, but that is separate from The Great Wheel.

We agree, Sigil/The Lady of Pain, etc, should not be thrust upon you.

 

[Weather Report]

I'm not sure whether this has been mentioned upthread, but the Blood War was actually introduced in MC 8 The Outer Planes Monstrous Compendium Appendix, not Planescape, and that's also when names like baatezu, tanar'ri and yugoloth first appeared too.

Oh, yeah, nice catch, I haven't cracked open my MCs for quite awhile, so some good things came out of the MADD movement.

 

[Hussar]

I would point out that MC8 is still 1991.

And, at that point, it was a pretty cool idea. It hadn't really spread beyond a fairly short blurb in MC8.

But, honestly, for me, this was the beginning of the end for planar material in AD&D. After this, it was all Planescape all the time and you couldn't swing a dead cat without Planescape lore infesting every bloody book.

3e was a huge breath of fresh air for me. Finally most of the planar stuff was stuffed back into some source books that I was free to ignore. That is, until I made the mistake of running the Savage Tide AP and the last three modules are one giant Planescape wank. Blarg. I ended the campaign long before we got to that point because I have zero interest in it.

 

[Weather Report]

I would point out that MC8 is still 1991.

And, at that point, it was a pretty cool idea. It hadn't really spread beyond a fairly short blurb in MC8.

But, honestly, for me, this was the beginning of the end for planar material in AD&D. After this, it was all Planescape all the time and you couldn't swing a dead cat without Planescape lore infesting every bloody book.

3e was a huge breath of fresh air for me. Finally most of the planar stuff was stuffed back into some source books that I was free to ignore. That is, until I made the mistake of running the Savage Tide AP and the last three modules are one giant Planescape wank. Blarg. I ended the campaign long before we got to that point because I have zero interest in it.

Okay, we get it, you hate Planescape, can we go now?

 

[Hussar]

Okay, we get it, you hate Planescape, can we go now?

Hey, I'd love to.

But, every time anything even remotely to do with the planes comes up, the Planescape police descend and tell us that we cannot possibly change anything because it would contradict a paragraph written in a 1997 supplement.

Like I said, I hope that Planescape fans get tons of material in 5e. OOdles of it and more power to them. Big, beautiful supplements that are a glory to behold. Something so pretty you actually feel bad touching it with the naked hand.

But, again, just like every other setting, keep it where it belongs, in that setting. Eladrin in 4e are elves. If eladrin in 5e are elves again, you can have that changed in all the Planescape books you want. It's not like setting books have to follow core. Just like minotaurs can be changed into pirates and sailors. Fantastic.

What I just don't understand is why we have to have it in core.

 

[I'm A Banana]

And, right here. THIS is what I'm talking about. "Loth's have an innate hatred of gods"? Where does that come from?

It doesn't really matter where it comes from. It arises in response to a change to the existing lore.

So here's an idea: don't dramatically change the existing lore.

It's age old writer's wisdom: write what you know. It's not too much to ask that you understand the topic you are writing about. If you're going to put yugoloths in the game (for whatever reason), put them in honoring the tradition that gave rise to them. Respect the fun that others have had with them. Understand what makes them entertaining.

If you refuse to or if you cannot, don't even bother writing about them. Do something new. Be creative. Take the bits you like, remix them, and turn them into something new. Be authentic.

WotC is deciding to go back to the old lore in 5e (incorporating 4e changes where they're good/possible), in part due to a recognition of the value (in a monetary sense) of that lore. If they're going to put the creatures in the game because there's a lot to gain from putting these creatures in the game, then they need to put the creatures in the game with a recognition of what makes those creatures valuable. IE: The old lore.

If they can't do that, they're better off going in a brand new direction, because they can't write about the topic in a way that suggests that they know what the heck they're actually talking about.

I think part of what these articles are is a way for them to observe the reaction, and see what, exactly, is interesting about these creatures to the fans. Because they might not really know, or they might not think they have the right idea, or the old lore doesn't perhaps match up with what the creature has become through iteration and play.

 

[Hussar]

It doesn't really matter where it comes from. It arises in response to a change to the existing lore.
/snip.

What existing lore? A bit written in a book three editions ago? It's not core. The only people who would actually know this bit of monster lore are fans of a specific setting for a specific edition. There is no change to existing core lore about these creatures.

In core, in any edition, Yugoloths don't hate gods. There is nothing about that in any core book. So, why are we forced to maintain lore from a specific setting?

It's no different than a Dragonlance fan insisting that minotaurs must be sailors and pirates. We must not change minotaurs. Labyrinth dwelling minotaurs are no good, because they counter lore for a specific setting.

What's the difference?

Why do Planescape fans get to bring up their setting specific information and make claims over the flavour of different creatures, but, no other setting specific fan gets to do the same? God hating yugoloths are only seen in Planescape and in no other setting. Why would you not leave that in the specific setting? Why does the specific setting get to trump the general?