D&D 5E Monsters of Many Names - Wandering Monsters (Yugoloth!)

Dausuul

Legend
I'm failing to see the problem here. Why does Planescape lore get to take precedence?

While I'm not a Planescape fan by any means, I've gotta come down on Kamikaze Midget's side here. The question is, "Precedence over what?" Only one setting's lore says the 'loths hate gods... but no setting's lore says they don't hate gods. I wouldn't give Planescape's lore precedence over Greyhawk's. But I would give it precedence over nothing.

Either 'loths should be presented as hating gods, or (better) the MM should be silent on the subject. Is it really so hard to just not mention their attitude toward gods at all? They're hateful, mercenary denizens of the middle planes, often recruited by demons or devils. End of story. Planescape fans don't have to rewrite the book, and you and I can adapt them as we like, or toss 'em out and whip up our own middle-planar denizens.
 
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Banned
Banned
Either 'loths should be presented as hating gods, or (better) the MM should be silent on the subject. Is it really so hard to just not mention their attitude toward gods at all? They're hateful, mercenary denizens of the middle planes, often recruited by demons or devils. End of story. Planescape fans don't have to rewrite the book, and you and I can adapt them as we like, or toss 'em out and whip up our own middle-planar denizens.


That sounds the most reasonable solution.

I am a huge Planescape fan, and this Yugoloths hating gods business is news to me (maybe because I don't own Faces of Evil: The Fiends).
 

Shemeska

Adventurer
I'm failing to see the problem here. Why does Planescape lore get to take precedence?

Because for a very long period of D&D's history (two editions, three editions if you're going with just the Great Wheel lore rather than PS in specific) it was the gold standard for planar lore, being the assumed default except when a campaign setting chose to specifically have a different take on things (like Eberron's distinct cosmology). We had a large body of common planar lore and assumptions for most of the game's history with the Great Wheel starting in 1e, with Planescape being not so much a distinct setting separate from everything else than as a product line specifically exploring the D&D cosmology. It wasn't until 4e when -for reasons I can only speculate upon- that large swathes of the preceding thirty years of planar lore were dismissed or rewritten in rather radical fashion. 3e opened things up and allowed settings to step outside of the common framework, but for the most part it stayed with the common lore that had been built up regarding the various outsider races. The baseline in the MM wasn't as detailed, but you have to look really hard to find any blatant contradictions to earlier lore, whereas I have a hard time recognizing some 4e things using the same names as earlier creatures.

You don't have to go into crazy detail in the 5e MM, but you should approach each monster with a deeply informed perspective on what has come before and write in such a way as to minimize contradictions. To me that's just being professional, and as I view it, if you're getting paid to write the material, you're getting paid to know it as well as you reasonably can. It's a point of professional pride for me to know all of that stuff and know it well, at least from my perspective. You won't have a subchapter to detail things heavily, but it's about being respectful to previous lore and the body of material that came before you. That was clearly the case in the 3e MotP given the amount of Planescape material that wound up therein, same as with the 3.5 DMG, the Fiendish Codices, and many other 3.x books. Less successful examples would be the 3.5 Voor and Corrupter of Fate, which while presented as yugoloths, violate a number of things regarding 'loth society and ecology that suggests a large degree of unfamiliarity with earlier sources in those two specific cases, which is unfortunate.

I'm not entirely sure it's going to do much to try to continue to argue this with you, given how rather, umm, vehement that you've been about disliking PS, but I'll try.
 
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Shemeska

Adventurer
Either 'loths should be presented as hating gods, or (better) the MM should be silent on the subject. Is it really so hard to just not mention their attitude toward gods at all? They're hateful, mercenary denizens of the middle planes, often recruited by demons or devils. End of story. Planescape fans don't have to rewrite the book, and you and I can adapt them as we like, or toss 'em out and whip up our own middle-planar denizens.

For just a MM entry, I'm actually in favor of being silent on the subject. For a 'loth specific book, go all in, but the MM should present the core of their being as greedy, self-centered, devious evil that sells their services to the highest bidder, with some sages suspecting something deeper, darker, and more manipulative beyond that for the race as a whole. You can hint at earlier lore without strictly saying it's true, and giving both PS fans a nod and not locking everyone else into that body of lore if they choose to go a different route.
 

Cyberen

First Post
For just a MM entry, I'm actually in favor of being silent on the subject. For a 'loth specific book, go all in, but the MM should present the core of their being as greedy, self-centered, devious evil that sells their services to the highest bidder, with some sages suspecting something deeper, darker, and more manipulative beyond that for the race as a whole. You can hint at earlier lore without strictly saying it's true, and giving both PS fans a nod and not locking everyone else into that body of lore if they choose to go a different route.

Excellent write up !
(I still don't agree with your claim that PS is the continuation of the great wheel, and I wouldn't call writers with less a completist bend than yours "unprofessional", though)
 


RichGreen

Adventurer
For just a MM entry, I'm actually in favor of being silent on the subject. For a 'loth specific book, go all in, but the MM should present the core of their being as greedy, self-centered, devious evil that sells their services to the highest bidder, with some sages suspecting something deeper, darker, and more manipulative beyond that for the race as a whole. You can hint at earlier lore without strictly saying it's true, and giving both PS fans a nod and not locking everyone else into that body of lore if they choose to go a different route.
This sounds eminently sensible.

Cheers


Rich
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Hussar said:
But, they're only not servants of evil gods in one setting. In any other setting, there is nothing, not one single bit of lore that prevents it.

Once again:

They have never been servants of the evil gods.

Asking them to be that is like asking goblins to be noble faerie knights. It's not something that has ever been a part of the creature. There's no reason it needs to become part of the creature.

Hussar said:
I would say that "Hates gods" isn't part of yugoloths at all. It never has been, outside of Planescape. It's no different than sea-faring minotaurs.

Once again: seafaring minotaurs are likely going to be part of what the core minotaurs are.

If you'd like to react to the points I'm making, that'd make for a much more engaging conversation than simply making the same assertions over and over again.

Hussar said:
My point is that the idea is automatically rejected, not on its merits, but because it's not PS compatible. I could not care less if something is Planescape compatible in core, the same way I could not care less that core Drow are incompatible for Eberron.

You keep ignoring the fact that core drow and Eberron drow (and minotaurs and giths and halflings and gnomes whatever) aren't really incompatible.

It IS rejected because it's PS incompatible. But if Dragonlance fans are getting their minotaur and Dark Sun fans are getting their halfling and Eberron fans are getting their drow, and spelljammer fans have their space elves, why shouldn't PS fans have their yugoloths? Why is PS the only setting that it's OK for the publishers of D&D to say "Your fiction is incompatible with the core"?

I get that you've drunk the haterade on the setting (all well and good), but it sounds like you're letting your hate obscure your reason, here. There's no conspiracy to force the taint of Planescape into your home games. If you don't like yugoloths, you ain't gotta use them, just like the millions of fans who won't use gully dwarves. Nothing PS-related needs to touch your little setting.
 
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pemerton

Legend
for a very long period of D&D's history (two editions, three editions if you're going with just the Great Wheel lore rather than PS in specific) it was the gold standard for planar lore, being the assumed default except when a campaign setting chose to specifically have a different take on things (like Eberron's distinct cosmology). We had a large body of common planar lore and assumptions for most of the game's history with the Great Wheel starting in 1e, with Planescape being not so much a distinct setting separate from everything else than as a product line specifically exploring the D&D cosmology.
I can't agree with this.

Planescape is not an "elaboration" on the planar appendix of the PHB, or even on the AD&D MoP. It's a whole lot of lore poured into what was, up to that point, largely an empty vessel.

Nor was Planescape the "gold standard" for planar lore. I GMed AD&D from 1984 to 1989, and got Jeff Grubb's MoP as soon as it was available in Australia, and none of that treated Planescape as the default. And I used 2nd ed AD&D material too, in my Rolemaster campaigns, including Greyhawk material and Oriental Adventures material, and none of that treated Planescape as the default.

You don't have to go into crazy detail in the 5e MM, but you should approach each monster with a deeply informed perspective on what has come before and write in such a way as to minimize contradictions. To me that's just being professional, and as I view it, if you're getting paid to write the material, you're getting paid to know it as well as you reasonably can. It's a point of professional pride for me to know all of that stuff and know it well
For me, professionalism in writing RPG fictional content is not primarily about canon and continuity. It's about creativity, and a sense of how engaging ideas can be presented as useable in actual play.

In the period after WotC took over TSR, Ryan Dancey had this to say about "canon" (RPG.DnD.Greyhawk, Sun, 26 Dec 1999 17:45:00):

For a long time, there was an effort to have "one cannon"...

Starting with 3e, we are changing our definiton of cannon. We are going to be moving to an idea called "core continuity"...

The core continuity material is not encyclopedic. We are not going to go through every published product, extract every fact, try to create logical explanations for all the discrepencies, then ask designers to adhere to that mass of data. The "core continuity" will be much smaller - an abstract of the total data, hitting just the most important features...

[T]he amount of knowledge that will be considered "cannon" has to be of a reasonably minimal size. It is simply impossible to keep every piece of fact accurate and checked when the volume of such material expands to the size of something like one of our popular campaign worlds. Trying to do so has created false expectations in the consumer population, and triggered numerous conflicts within the company...

ome of the material produced for our worlds is crap. Pulling no punches, not every word written under the banner of a D&D world logo is suitable for print or should ever have been published. Rather than hold our noses and pretend that such material is signficant, we're going to simply pretend that it does not exist and stop trying to patch it up or fix it.


Good material is more important than canon and continuity. I think this is especially so when we consider new players - they might take up the game because its material is good; they are not going to take up the game because it is adhering to continuity established in a product they have never even heard of, let alone played.
 


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