D&D 5E Monsters of Many Names - Wandering Monsters (Yugoloth!)

[MarkB]

I no longer have any idea of what the 5E Monster Manual is going to look like. These critters don't seem like MM1 candidates at all to me, and it seems weird that they'd be tackling them before many other, more basic monsters.

I mean, it's nice that they exist, I guess, but I think more recent efforts by Paizo and Green Ronin have created much more compelling neutral evil fiends. These guys seem pretty tepid in comparison.

This complaint came up in the discussion of the last article. Klaus pointed out that this is actually a long-running article series that has already covered numerous more commonplace creatures.

I think it's simply an unfortunate happenstance that the author's current detour through the outer planes has happened to coincide with a flurry of new 5e developments, causing them to draw a wider audience than previous articles in the series.

 

[pemerton]

No one loves xvarts

Speak for yourself! - I've always had a soft spot (though I think of them as Svarts, from the original White Dwarf presentation).

Paint one tribe of goblins blue. Give them rat pets. Done. No need for xvarts.

Harsh! As you've pointed out upthread, this logic will wipe out most of the classic humanoids. Next you'll be telling us we don't need bullywugs and gripli.

If I could go back in time, after I killed Hitler, I'd stop off in Lake Geneva and explain to them that they don't need both gnolls and bugbears, and that the gnoll concept is the superior one, no matter what they call the resultant critter.

Now bugbears I really can take or leave!

(EDIT: And I've just found out I can't XP your posts, which I thought were terrific even if too harsh on Xvarts.)

 

[Jack99]

Harsh! As you've pointed out upthread, this logic will wipe out most of the classic humanoids. Next you'll be telling us we don't need bullywugs and gripli.

Do we really need either?

 

[gyor]

I like this. Some elaboration on this theme:

Demons and devils are purposeful evil, each one bent on achieving an end: Destruction or control. 'Loths are purposeless evil. They may concoct elaborate schemes, all bent on spreading despair, but their schemes do not tie in to some grand design, and to mortal eyes the end often seems unworthy of the means.

With a 'loth, everything is personal. An ultraloth might spin a web of intrigue across half the world in order to darken the soul of a single child. Not an important child, not a future emperor or archmage; only a child who was happy and innocent, whose soul was exceptionally bright and who would have brightened the lives of those around her. The challenge of untangling a 'loth plot is that PCs are accustomed to plots along the lines of:

1. Do a bunch of evil stuff, causing misery and suffering.
2. ???
3. Profit!

...where the task is to figure out what step 2 is, and how to prevent it from leading to 3. But in a 'loth plot, there is no "profit." Step 1 is the objective, and when it's complete, the 'loth will simply start over somewhere else. PCs won't ever be able to figure out the 'loth's goal until they learn to think as the 'loth does... and the worst part is, that may itself be the goal: Take heroic player characters and teach them to think like the most malevolent of fiends.

While demons and devils fight over what picture to paint, 'loths just keep mixing in more black.

I love this idea, Yugoloths are Evil without meaning, without purpose.

Humans naturally like to explain evil, why it exists, what its greater goals are, and so on.

Devils want order and evil is the most effective way to thier minds to create it.

Demons want to destroy, Ultimately with the goal of destroying the universe, a force for entropy.

'Loths do evil, for no reason, oh some might have personal abitions and a thirst for power at times, but just as often if not more thier is no reason, no deeper meaning, no purpose, evil that is without cause and thierfore beyond human understanding with its need for cause and effect.

Thier the Senfield/Corner Gas of Evil

 

[avin]

I'm sold on the idea of spreading evil "just because". It fits. Everybody happy now and we can have Loths on board?

 

[Hussar]

Meh. Talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Ooo, we need a different sort of demon to justify having a third kind of evil in our alignment system. They don't really have any schtick, don't really differentiate from demons or devils. They just kind of take up that space over there.

For the love of god can we just take all these pointless, useless creatures, stuff them into a really pretty, nicely written Planescape 5e book and keep them there?

What's with ramming all this Planescape crap down the throats of people who LOATHED Planescape the first time around. I loved the fact that 3e rejected 99% of Planescape and kept that 1% buried deep in the bowels of supplements that I never bothered to buy. Why are we being forced to shoehorn this stuff into the main game? It was never part of the main game in any edition. Yugoloths were always an "also ran" creation. Demodands? Yeah, three entries in the Monster Manual 2 in 1e D&D. Whoopee.

Good grief, who cares?

 

[I'm A Banana]

Ooo, we need a different sort of demon to justify having a third kind of evil in our alignment system. They don't really have any schtick, don't really differentiate from demons or devils. They just kind of take up that space over there.

Read the thread and get back to me on that.

 

[avin]

Read the thread and get back to me on that.

Indeed. Interesting how people find kobolds and goblins and orcs and hobgoblins oh soooooooooooooo different and then complain about Yugoloths...

 

[Shemeska]

What's with ramming all this Planescape crap down the throats of people who LOATHED Planescape the first time around. I loved the fact that 3e rejected 99% of Planescape and kept that 1% buried deep in the bowels of supplements that I never bothered to buy.

Hussar, how familiar are you actually with 2e Planescape? Because those numbers above you're pulling out of the plane of quasi-elemental vaccuum are really grossly incorrect. Seriously, compare the material on the planes that originated in 2e to the material presented in 3e, because the vast majority of it remained intact. 3e just didn't go into as elaborate detail, but heck, if you look at the 3e MotP there are some portions that are virtually word for word from 2e sources (some of the dreamscapes in the Ethereal plane), most of the locations originated in Planescape, etc. They didn't use Sigilian cant slang, but the lore was retained in very large part.

Even when 4e at first rejected the Great Wheel in favor of its own World Axis cosmology, you have to notice that over time a lot of Planescape material started to get ported in, adapted to fit in some cases, but ported in nonetheless. Plus, look at where we're at now in terms of planar design. Clearly the 2e/3e material had some serious traction or else the outcry over its excision in 4e wouldn't have been so extreme and we wouldn't be seeing it returned to core status in the game again like we appear to be in 5e.

 

[gyor]

Another way of looking at the Loths they're like the serial killer that no one can figure out why they did it. Not for passion, or Lust, or Power, or Madness, or Greed. Its the not knowing that frustrstes people, makes them feel powerless because if they can't catogorize it, they can't control it, even if you kill the killer, thier could be others like him and because you don't know why, its impossible to know until its too late!

@Hassur read the Pathfinder verison of Demodands, its way better, I admit Demodands were a wasted opportunity in Planescape and D&D. They put them in Carceri the Prison plane with the evil titans and then did nothing with them.

With Pathfinder they're fiends that serve the nearly Godlike Thanos Titans, they worship the Titans and forcefully convert mortal clerics to the worship of Evil Titans, and then send out the clerics to convert others to Titan worship in the Material Plane. Demodands live in the Abyss along with demons, because Pathfinder doesn't have a Carcari Plane. The Evil Titans were cast into the Abyss.