Monster's Primary Attack = Single Attack

[daemonslye]

Here is a question I thought had a simple answer; However, I cannot find a clear answer in the rules:

My current DM's supposition: "Primary weapons are considered a
single attack." Referring to a monster's primary natural weapons and the ability to use all primary weapons without a full-round action.

Now, I thought the MM was clear:

- > ------------------------------------------
- > MMp7: ATTACKS
- > Natural Weapons: <blather about attack
- > bonuses for natural weapons>
- > "...All of the foregoing assumes that the
- > creature makes a full attack (see Attack
- > Actions, page 122 in the Players Handbook)
- > and employs its natural weapons. If a creature
- > instead chooses the attack option (and thus
- > makes only a single attack), it uses its
- > primary attack bonus."
- > ------------------------------------------
- > PHp122: ATTACK ACTIONS
- > Attack
- > "The attack action is a standard action. You
- > can move and then make a single attack, or
- > attack and then move."
- > ------------------------------------------

However, what if we look at the description of the Hydra:

- > ------------------------------------------
- > MMp122: COMBAT
- > "Hydras attack with all of their heads at no penalty
- > even if they move or charge during a round."
- > ------------------------------------------

Yikes. So that throws the "single attack" question into
dispute. In addition, though AOOs are not mentioned
these could be construed to fall under the same rule
(couple that with reach and I am running the other way
from anything hydra or retriever like).

Thanks for helping clear up this issue.

~D

DMs Supposition (after I asked him to look into the rules):
- "I spent more time reading and thinking through this and came
- to the same conclusion. Primary weapons are considered a
- single attack. This is even reflected in the MM stats by the
- fact that secondary weapons are made at a -5. In other
- words, for natural weapons, the attack bonuses would be 0/-5
- (no including size and strength bonuses) such that all
- primary weapons are used in a single attack at +0, and
- secondary weapon attacks are made at -5. This compares to
- "manufactured weapons" for a barbarian with say +6/+1 in
- which two attacks (being made *in sequence*) could be made
- only if the full attack option is taken."

 

[Caliban]

Here is a question I thought had a simple answer; However, I cannot find a clear answer in the rules:

My current DM's supposition: "Primary weapons are considered a
single attack." Referring to a monster's primary natural weapons and the ability to use all primary weapons without a full-round action.

Now, I thought the MM was clear:

- > ------------------------------------------
- > MMp7: ATTACKS
- > Natural Weapons: <blather about attack
- > bonuses for natural weapons>
- > "...All of the foregoing assumes that the
- > creature makes a full attack (see Attack
- > Actions, page 122 in the Players Handbook)
- > and employs its natural weapons. If a creature
- > instead chooses the attack option (and thus
- > makes only a single attack), it uses its
- > primary attack bonus."
- > ------------------------------------------
- > PHp122: ATTACK ACTIONS
- > Attack
- > "The attack action is a standard action. You
- > can move and then make a single attack, or
- > attack and then move."
- > ------------------------------------------

However, what if we look at the description of the Hydra:

- > ------------------------------------------
- > MMp122: COMBAT
- > "Hydras attack with all of their heads at no penalty
- > even if they move or charge during a round."
- > ------------------------------------------

Yikes. So that throws the "single attack" question into
dispute. In addition, though AOOs are not mentioned
these could be construed to fall under the same rule
(couple that with reach and I am running the other way
from anything hydra or retriever like).

Thanks for helping clear up this issue.

~D

DMs Supposition (after I asked him to look into the rules):
- "I spent more time reading and thinking through this and came
- to the same conclusion. Primary weapons are considered a
- single attack. This is even reflected in the MM stats by the
- fact that secondary weapons are made at a -5. In other
- words, for natural weapons, the attack bonuses would be 0/-5
- (no including size and strength bonuses) such that all
- primary weapons are used in a single attack at +0, and
- secondary weapon attacks are made at -5. This compares to
- "manufactured weapons" for a barbarian with say +6/+1 in
- which two attacks (being made *in sequence*) could be made
- only if the full attack option is taken."

Primary Weapons are not a single attack. You can have multiple primary attacks. It just means that you are equally proficient at them.

It still takes a full attack action to use multiple attacks, even if your primary weapon is comprised of several natural limbs.

If a monster moves and make a standard attack, it only get's a single attack with one of it's natural weapons. Some monsters have abilites that make them an exception to this rule (Lions with Pounce, Hyrda's, Ettins, etc.)

The Hydra is an exception to this rule, because it has multiple heads that can each direct their own attack.

 

[AGGEMAM]

Well, he is wrong.

What he is actually saying is that a character wielding two daggers doesn't need to take the full attack action to attack with both.

 

[daemonslye]

I appreciate your responses, but I wonder if there is anything specific in the rules other than the passages I mention that clears this up.

I can't even find examples of mounted combat where the horse only gets one hoof attack because it took a move action before the attack action (by the same token I can't find an example where a horse gets two hoof attacks after a move either).

What is the process for submitting a question to the skip the sage or monty c.?

Thanks again,

~D

 

[AGGEMAM]

In your MM quote is the answer plain and simple.

If a creature instead chooses the attack option (and thus makes only a single attack), it uses its primary attack bonus.

 

[IceBear]

Yeah Aggeman has it. The hyra is an exception to the rule...that's why they highlight it in it's description - because it doesn't behave like normal.

IceBear

 

[mikebr99]

Well, he is wrong.

What he is actually saying is that a character wielding two daggers doesn't need to take the full attack action to attack with both.

Nope... Caliban is correct. You DO need to use the full attack action to make any more then one attack per round.

Full attack [Full][AoO: No]
Description: If a combatant gets more than one attack per action, the combatant must use the full attack action to use those
additional attacks. A combatant does not need to specify the targets of a the attacks ahead of time. A combatant can see how
the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.
The combatant may take a 5 ft. step before, after, or between the attacks.
If a combatant gets multiple attacks based on a combatant's base attack bonus, the combatant must make the attacks in order
from highest bonus to lowest.
Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack Action: After a combatant's first attack, if the combatant has not yet taken a 5-foot
step, a combatant can decide to move instead of making a combatant's remaining attacks.

 

[AGGEMAM]

Nope... Caliban is correct. You DO need to use the full attack action to make any more then one attack per round.

ROTFLOMAO .. I meant the posters DM was wrong, Caliban off course slipped his reply in just before mine .. now see what you did I cannot stop laughing.

 

[Macbrea]

The exceptions to the rules of single attack after a 5ft move are the Hyrda and the Ettin. Both of which have a seperate brain for each attack.

 

[kreynolds]

Nope... Caliban is correct.

I don't think he was replying to Caliban.

EDIT: Everyone notices at the same time, apparently.