Monsters using stealth

[deleteme123456]

Anyone who's looked at the MM or KOTS knows Kobolds are really quite good at Stealth. About as good as your typical Rogue, plus or minus a few points depending on Kobold breed.

The Rogue uses Stealth followed by Deft Strike to leap out from around a corner or a bunch of trees, etc., and hurl a dagger or stab an enemy with CA because stealth doesn't break until then.

How are the Kobolds supposed to use Stealth to their advantage? Maybe they can gain a surprise round, although unless you really want to make separate checks for each of them, any PC group that is sane enough to approach carefully, looking for traps or enemies that might be hiding, is basically taking 20 on the perception check to spot the bad guys, at which point the Kobolds have little to no chance of staying hidden (in my Level group, the highest perception at Level 1 is 6, which is actually quite low and gives the Kobolds a slim chance if say, they roll 17 and have a stealth +10... if there was a +9 character, the kobolds would be more or less out of luck). And the rogue can do more than just get a surprise round with stealth.

One thing I've been wondering/contemplating is "what actions by an enemy of a creature break that creature's stealth?" Clearly, a minor action perception check can, and per errata trying to enter the hidden creature's square does.

What about having unbroken line of sight to the enemy? The enemy was hiding around the corner, you think you heard something coming from that direction, and you walk to where you can see around the corner? You didn't move, so you might still be in the shadows... I realize this is a stretch, but otherwise how do you get into a situation, short of an invisible creature, where you're adjacent to an enemy, could spend one square of movement to enter his square, and still can't see him?

Readied actions are one possibility, but in the interest of keeping the game moving, I never use more than 2 "initiative groups" of monsters. If a monster readies an action, he's going to break out of his group and form a 3rd, or he'll wind up losing a lot of extra priority as he lets the PCs between his new spot and the next group take their turns. I might be able to get my PCs to agree to "he rejoins the nearest group in either direction, breaking ties in favor of the later group" but that's still suboptimal.

Any other ideas?

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

looking for traps or enemies that might be hiding, is basically taking 20 on the perception check to spot the bad guys

I think you're still in 3E-mode: there is no Take 20 in 4E, only Take 10, which is a passive perception check. If you want to make an active check, you must roll (and it takes a standard action PHB p. 179, 186).

 

[deleteme123456]

I think you're still in 3E-mode: there is no Take 20 in 4E, only Take 10, which is a passive perception check. If you want to make an active check, you must roll (and it takes a standard action PHB p. 179, 186).

Inbetween encounters for a skill with no failure (Perception) there is still take 20 if you simply acknowledge that a player could roll the d20 until it comes up 20. See also the DMG which describes that when players search a room for 1-2 minutes you should give the result as if they had rolled a 20.

Edit: And that doesn't address uses for Stealth once combat starts if you don't have Deft Strike.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Inbetween encounters for a skill with no failure (Perception) there is still take 20 if you simply acknowledge that a player could roll the d20 until it comes up 20. See also the DMG which describes that when players search a room for 1-2 minutes you should give the result as if they had rolled a 20.

That doesn't apply here: it's meant for situations where there 'is no time constraint'. The point of that note in the DMG is to avoid a lot of pointless rolls when there is no consequence for failing a roll (like searching an empty room). In your situation, failing a roll means the kobolds get the jump on you, meaning you use the rules I quoted in my previous post.

 

[Saeviomagy]

If you don't have deft strike or something similar, then either
a) Stand in superior concealment
b) Stand in superior cover
c) Only attack once every other round

Don't kobolds get

Spoiler

the ability to shift as a minor action

, which basically makes up for a lack of deft strike? They can

Spoiler

move into regular cover, attack and then shift back behind total cover

in their turn.

Oh, and the current stealth rules are covered in the latest phb update.

Basically: to hide you need superior cover or total concealment (or be out of combat), but you can maintain hidden status in any cover or concealment. To hide you make a hide check against passive perception checks. Attacking breaks stealth after the attack action is complete (so using deft strike to move 2 squares from cover and stab someone means you are still hidden when you make the attack roll). You can look for a hidden foe as a minor action, getting an active perception check against it's last stealth result. You can also simply move such that it doesn't have cover or concealment against you.

There's probably a bit more to it than that.

 

[deleteme123456]

A party advancing slowly through the woods carefully looking for traps and signs of enemies would qualify as taking 20 I'd say. I could potentially call for their stealth checks and then see if the Kobolds see them, in which case the Kobolds can either ambush them or stealth themselves.

I have the current stealth rules from all errata, requires superior / total to start, etc etc etc. So a K finds himself somewhere way out of the way, say behind a lot of trees or around a corner of a wall. He stealths and gets 18 beating my PCs. If he wants to attack, he may not even have line of effect, or may be at -5 for superior cover, optimistically he might only have normal cover vs his target... in the latter 2 cases he at least gets +2 to the attack for CA, and then yes, he could use a racial power to try to regain his stealth.

The rogue however, uses deft strike to leap out from around the corner / cover, completely blowing stealth but not until after the attack, so is at insane numbers (my level 1 rogue is at +10 = +4 dex +4 weapon (dagger) +2 CA). I would like to be able to do something useful with the Kobold's stealth, but attacking at a net -3 or even net +0 seems useless, except for the one with specific abilities that trigger off CA.

 

[James McMurray]

Kobolds shouldn't be stealthing around in environments that suck for stealthers unless they're trying to avoid notice. If he wants to ambush, he should shadow the group at a distance until there's a line of cover/concealment he can use to get all the way up to them.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

A party advancing slowly through the woods carefully looking for traps and signs of enemies would qualify as taking 20 I'd say.

You could say that, but it would be a house rule, and one that turns the Stealth ruleset on its ear as it deviates very widely from RAW. Again, the Take 20 option, as you're calling it, is not available to PCs; it's a tool the DM can use to speed up play for repeating the same skill check when there is no time constraint (DMG p.41). The shortcut is there to avoid wasting the group's time by repeating the same skill check when there would eventually be a success anyway. The example given is searching an empty room after the encounter has been dealt with and there is no chance that more monsters will show up while the party is searching. The DM handwaves the series of rolls and assumes that a 20 will eventually be rolled and is told to

Assume the characters spend a minute or two searching, and move on to tell them what they find.

Take 20 as it existed in 3.x does not exist in 4E. The way Perception checks are made in your ambush scenario are described under the Perception skill in the PHB: you either make a passive check for the players (Take 10) or the players make an active check (they roll d20).

When on the alert for danger, as your party is, they make an active check: no Take 20 allowed. There was a thread here on ENWorld (a few months old now I would say) that discussed the odd situation of an active Perception check yielding a lower result than a passive check. The consensus was that a Stealth check had to beat both a passive and active Perception roll, if an active check was made, but I don't know if the basis for that was somewhere in the DMG/PHB, a Wizards employee clarification, or was just a common sense thing. I don't see it in the updates...

 

[Saeviomagy]

The rogue however, uses deft strike to leap out from around the corner / cover, completely blowing stealth but not until after the attack, so is at insane numbers (my level 1 rogue is at +10 = +4 dex +4 weapon (dagger) +2 CA). I would like to be able to do something useful with the Kobold's stealth, but attacking at a net -3 or even net +0 seems useless, except for the one with specific abilities that trigger off CA.

It's very easy to get cover against an opponent without him having cover against you. Simply stand next to whatever is granting the cover. Similarly with concealment, you do not count the concealment you are in to the penalties of your attack.

 

[deleteme123456]

It's very easy to get cover against an opponent without him having cover against you. Simply stand next to whatever is granting the cover. Similarly with concealment, you do not count the concealment you are in to the penalties of your attack.

Only with ranged attacks as far as I can see.

     |P
12345|
_____|
 K->

K= Kobold, P = PC

Kobold moves 2 to the right. K is out of line-of-sight of P. Rolls stealth. Beats P's passive percep and hides.

     |P
     |
_____|
   K>

K uses Shifty, going 1 right. Still has cover (no matter what corner P chooses, the two left corners of K's square are concealed. K rolls stealth again and still beats P. (Notice now K has to make 2 stealth rolls for one attack.)

K attacks with CA and no cover penalty and loses stealth. Next turn K can move 1 left to repeat process.[/code][FONT=courier new,monospace]

That's really lousy. Two stealth rolls and has to make a ranged attack? What's a Dragonshield supposed to do?
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