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Monte Cook and 5e

Rogue Agent

First Post
And I think it boils down to this (for me, at least): I always used to play D&D in a way 4e supports very well, so to me 4e just feels like a streamlined version of 3e.

This is a really important point, too: 4E not only changed a bunch of stuff, it also intensely focused itself on a narrow band of D&D's former gameplay.

This, BTW, isn't a secret: It was an explicit design goal. The designers referred to that narrow band as "the sweet spot". If it actually was your sweet spot, then you were a lot more likely to (a) make the switch to 4E and (b) not notice the changes.

If it wasn't your sweet spot -- or if you liked the range of gameplay experiences former editions provided -- then 4E presented major problems.

But if you read UA, most Completes, etc, you already knew many of those ideas that end up on 4e. The thing is, they used to be optional. Now, those rules are part of the core system.

Also true. The shift in design ethos at WotC was apparent for several years before 4E actually arrived. And a lot of 4E stuff was being tested in late-3E supplements. (This also isn't a secret: It's openly discussed by 4E designers.)

Notably, there were warning signs. I didn't really tune into them, either, so I can necessarily blame the WotC designers for not noticing, either. But if you go back in the archives at ENWorld and RPGNet and other places around the net, you can see the same objections cropping up to those late-3E products that would eventually be directly fully at 4E. Usually by the exact same people.

The biggest shift in thought was the way multiclassing worked without penalty, work, or sacrifice. It became more like dual-classing,

As you note, though, it's not like 3E introduced a whole new mechanic. What they did was drop the horribly broken multiclassing rules, patch-up the dual-classing rules, and then applied them to everybody.

People had been doing that for years in their house rules. (Some went the other direction and applied multiclassing to everybody. But either way, it was just part of the larger pattern at every AD&D table I ever played at to eliminate a lot of the "wacky" racial restrictions in AD&D.)

Overall, 3e was incompatible with AD&D or the old D&D without a LOT of wrangling...

Well, again, I just don't find this to be true (in the meaningful sense of conversion and actual play at the table; if you just mean that the stat blocks look different, then that's true). With the exception of broken multiclassed characters in AD&D, converting characters from AD&D to 3E is really, really easy (and you end up with a character who can do everything your old character can do). And converting adventures is literally a matter of opening the Monster Manual and using the new stats.

(or if you want, instead of using them as defenses, still roll to hit and then use their bonuses as saves instead).

Well, yes. If you start extensively rewriting 4E to make it look more like 3E, it will look more like 3E. Duh.
 

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Viking Bastard

Adventurer
To get that, here are what I think of as the critical tests, which are neutral on 2E/3E/4E sensibilities:
  1. Character sheet on one page, and not cluttered. Can't pass that test, then something got included for a more narrow target, and it doesn't belong.
  2. Can play a full game with just the material in one book (e.g. like RC) but easily and quickly supplemented by a compatible monster book, magic item books, setting material, etc. -- if you want to.
  3. About 6 races, about 8 classes, and you make characters that fight, explore, talk, and generally express themselves "heroically" in dungeons, woodland glades, mountain peaks, swamps, pocket dimensions, etc.
  4. You find some pretty basic treasure, some niftier things, and a few oddball things, too.
That's it.

Sounds excellent! Perfect!

The RC was my first taste of RPGs and I think it's probably the best core book in the game's history.

This is a really important point, too: 4E not only changed a bunch of stuff, it also intensely focused itself on a narrow band of D&D's former gameplay.

This, BTW, isn't a secret: It was an explicit design goal. The designers referred to that narrow band as "the sweet spot".

I'm a little murky on what that sweet spot is exactly, though. A lot of 4e people seem to have vastly different playstyles to mine. In fact, my main gripe about 4e (after a few other fiddly bits) are hardcore 4e fans who turn all 4e discussions into discussions about tactics and modifiers. D&D has never been about combat for me--it's about rollickin' fantasy action, with dragonslaying and chasms and fireballs and +1 swords and somewhat morally iffy heroics, etc.

I don't like the overly tactical bent of 4e, but I love how easy it makes running interesting combats even though I'm not particularly tactically minded or gifted.
 

Crazy Jerome

First Post
According to many people (not all, I grant you) recreating the BECMI feeling with 4e is not that easy.
4e changed both the sensibilities and the mechanics.

Combats are a lot more complex, at least as complex as those with 3.5, and take a lot more time.

The core of BECMI was simplicity - there are some very good OSR games that do a much better job of recreating that BECMI feel than either 3.X or 4e - DCC comes to mind, in particular.

Both 3.X and 4e are complex games, 3.X is complex across the board while 4e focused on combat.

Dozens of powers and abilities, many with nearly identical mechanics but different names, the ability to push, pull, and otherwise maneuver the enemy models around the board. (Remember when WotC tried to claim that what they really meant by 4e not being in the works was that a 4e that requires miniatures was not in the works? By and large... they were either lying, or failed miserably in the attempt to limit the use of minis.)

So, not BECMI, by any stretch. I am not saying that 4e is a bad game, not my cuppa, but enough people like the thing that trying to claim that it has no good points would be an exercise in futility, and silly to boot.

Nor am I claiming that you aren't running a BECMI style game with it - if you are then good on you! Make the game your own! I am merely saying that the BECMI style is not intrinsic to the game, and it would take a fair amount of effort to do so. A good DM can do an awful lot of stuff by thinking outside the books.




Well, of course everyone brings their own thing to the game. But the main sensibility of BECMI/RC that I mean here is that you do bring your own thing to the game, and that is what becomes determinant. We've had a lot of talk about what D&D is. To get to the core of my point, let me make some radical statements about what D&D is not:
  • Not extensive backgrounds on every NPC.
  • Not "long adventures" where you follow along while the DM tells some NPC bard's story.
  • Not "kits".
  • Not "Merchants and Mayhem".
  • Not a long campaign in Ravenloft or Athas or sailing a Spelljammer.
  • And sure as bloody hell not a Jane Austen novel.
  • Not crafting rules for your character.
  • Not prestige classes to join an organization.
  • Not feats that prohibit normal things that your character can do unless you have them.
  • Not equipment balancing by setting an expected amount by GP value.
  • Not building every PC and NPC and monster with common rules.
  • Not stat blocks that take up 3/4 of the page.
  • Not "templates" that require refiguring the stats of the monsters.
  • Not "powers" for every character.
  • Not tielflings and dragonborn before gnomes and the world assumptions that go with them. (An example of a more pervasive problem of trading one "not D&D" thing for some other "not D&D" thing--as if mere change was useful.)
  • Not even more "feats".
  • Not the improvisational theatre version of always finding a way to say yes to anything the players suggest or making sure that they "win".
  • Not decently design but poorly explained "narrative" RPG techniques.
  • Not the "Big Wheel" or Sigil or the 4E planar cosmology or any other default planar layout.
  • Not any given set of "alignments".
I'm sure I left something out, too. :p And don't get me wrong. Across all of D&D play, people have done all of those things with D&D--even the Jane Austen novel--and had a blast doing it. More power to them. I've even enjoyed some of them myself. Plus, I think some of those things are objectively less trouble than others to the core sensibility--flexibility being useful in and off itself. And in fairness, once you start making that kind of list, you must also include things such as, "Wizards not using swords for arbitrary reasons," and even D&D's version of "Vancian magic"--though that last is borderline. Get too strict, and we'd nullify D&D down to nothing. But this is a list about the center of a sensibility, not a philosophical treatise. :D

And every last one of those things, some official author for TSR or WotC has added to D&D at some point--directly, or by implication. This "kruft" that has accumulated around the center has become, for a lot of people, what "D&D is". But it ain't, no matter how much that might be close enough to the truth for them personally. And again in fairness, one of the reasons that it did, was because those same people often wanted D&D to become one of those things. And official stamp goes a long way, ever since Gygax made his twin injunction about running your game, but it wasn't official D&D if you strayed too far from AD&D rules.

Even then, we were building up "Gygax's houserules" around the core of D&D. Which is hardly surprising, since the core is a sensibility instead of a hard thing you can pin down exactly, and someone's version of the house rules had to get published, if it were to get published at all. But those grappling rules in AD&D 1st ed? And the psionics? They weren't D&D, either. ;)

So I hardly think that Mike and Monte and company will be flawless with their execution. It is the nature of the beast. But both have demonstrated the ability to really break D&D down into its real parts, and then reassemble those parts in interesting ways--that ends up being not exactly D&D, but something a whole lot like it and fun too. In fact, you could say both of them have been part of such an effort at least twice (Monte--3E, Arcana Evolved, Mike--Iron Heroes, 4E).

Whether they can convey some of that essential core in a modular fashion that will attract fans of some of those different aspects above, is another question. That's a much tougher beast. RC wasn't perfect, either. But there was a product when a designer got pretty close to subsuming his own house rules for the core sensibility.
 
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dagger

Adventurer
D&D has never been about combat for me--it's about rollickin' fantasy action, with dragonslaying and chasms and fireballs and +1 swords and somewhat morally iffy heroics, etc.

Our group is the same but we gave up 4e after a year an a half because it changed so much and felt like a totally different game.
 

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Something to bear in mind is that 3.X was, in part, his baby. He is likely a lot more comfortable running games in what is, to him, a native system.

It is also possible that he was specifically brought in to bring 4e closer to 3.X, I don't know how WotC management is dealing with trying to regain marketshare.


If I might be more precise, 3.0 was his baby; he left WotC before 3.5 and posted some articles on his site at the time that he thought it had come too early and fumbled the ball on some of the changes.

His review of 3.5 is interesting reading here: Archived Topics REVIEWS

This isn't to contradict your main points of course - just thought it was interesting.

Cheers
 

Rechan

Adventurer
I'm a little murky on what that sweet spot is exactly, though.
I was glued to the 4e design run-up discussions. The designers' referencing to the The "sweet spot" was 3e's levels 5-8 or so. In that range, the system they said functioned its best, the to-hit-to-monster-BAB was at its best ratio, PCs had interesting and fun abilities that didn't begin breaking the game/giving DMs headaches, and monsters were tough but easy to run. This is also the area where many groups, they said, reported was the most enjoyable. Basically the feel that E6 was trying to capture.

A lot of 4e people seem to have vastly different playstyles to mine. In fact, my main gripe about 4e (after a few other fiddly bits) are hardcore 4e fans who turn all 4e discussions into discussions about tactics and modifiers.
Unless it was a thread about adventure design or fluff creating, I got this from a lot of 3e threads back in the day (but then, there was a 3e rules forum, a 3e houserules forum, and the General forum, so maybe that's why). The only place that was dedicated to flavor was the WotC Eberron forum I hang out on. Hell, looking in the Legacy forum and the PF forum, a lot of the threads are on rules.

Maybe you mean in person though. To which I can't really comment on.
 
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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
If I might be more precise, 3.0 was his baby; he left WotC before 3.5 and posted some articles on his site at the time that he thought it had come too early and fumbled the ball on some of the changes.

His review of 3.5 is interesting reading here: Archived Topics REVIEWS

This isn't to contradict your main points of course - just thought it was interesting.

Cheers
It WAS interesting...to me, at least. I can't say I agreed with his analysis 100%. I can say some of his revelations do not surprise me.
 

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