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Monte Cook: Guidance for Monsters and Treasure

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Totally agree with the 'Guidelines' being spelt out - especially for the players. This info seems to be for DM....and then the players may feel the DM is still doing it wrong.

BUT, then WOTC and others must follow this up with adventures/modules atat aren't just a bunch of appropriate challenge rating fights. I want to see some with easy fights (b/c those creatures would be there) and fights they aren't just meant to turn up and wade through.
Absolutely agree.

In fact, I'm beginning to wonder if the true make-or-break point for all of 5e will not in fact be the system itself but its first few published adventures (setting the style for what comes later) and how well they are designed.

One possibly radical thing they could do for the first few adventures is to suggest different XP awards for each encounter based on how the party took on said encounter, as in: (let's assume an adventure for levels 1-3)

Room 25 - Monsters: 2 Ogres [stat block] These two fine fellows are well-fed and content, and will treat the party's presence with disdain unless attacked. If approached carefully, they might even be persuaded to reveal information about the presence of the Wizard in Room 36 - these Ogres have had their fill of following her orders.

XP award (under no circumstances may more than one be given):
75 per character if Ogres defeated in combat.
100 per character if combat avoided by stealth or diplomacy.
125 per character if Ogres persuaded to join or help party.


Anyone think this might work?

Lan-"I don't remember the last time I got experience points for diplomacy"-efan
 

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Incenjucar

Legend
Eh. That's incredibly gamist, unless it's based strictly on the difficulty of it - if it's harder to use diplomacy than to just slaughter them all. It also doesn't help anyone who ignores XP and just levels people when they need to level.

A more natural-feeling method is to have actual benefits in the actual game world based on certain choices of action, as, oddly enough, video games often provide.

If you kill Weepy McVampire on sight, you get XP and whatever's on him.

If you defeat Weepy, but interrogate him, you get XP, whatever's on him, and whatever information you can wring out of him.

If you ally with Weepy, you get the XP, and he proves a staunch ally and later on repays you back in full and with interest for giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Being a brute should be fast and easy but lack the social benefits of being diplomatic.
 

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
What I'm not seeing is how this restricts the DM at all.


A system set up to run a particular way and requiring a specific range items to be in play for the system to run the way it was intended requires the GM to make those items available and for PCs to have those items. It funnels the players toward expecting those items to be in play and funnels the GM toward making sure those items are in play. Otherwise, either the system needs to be adjusted to accomodate doing anything but including the narrow range of items. If the GM is to run the system as written, he is restricted to including those items that are required for the system to run as written and, as a correlary, to not included additional items that would put the PCs beyond the expected levels of power. There's an expected window of power that the PCs are meant to be in for the system to run as written and a range of items they are expected to posees in some combination during their careers within that system.

Judging by the rest of what you have written, you fully understand this relationship but simply see it as the way things ought to be. You describe it as restrictive but don't agree that the actual word should be used to describe it as such.
 

pemerton

Legend
Modern systems tend to emulate Skinner boxes where players are rewarded for simple repetition of mundane tasks rather than being let out of the box and finding their own rewards through setting personal goals and striving for personal PC achievement. Let's get off the treadmill and run our own miles with 5E, and thus find much more satisfaction even if it isn't chucked in front of us no matter which direction or how hard we run.
I think this is a slightly unfair characterisation of at least some of the games being played using modern systems (eg 4e).

The difference being that a system that doesn't have the treadmill built in can still be played in that manner while one that requires the treadmill is the one that forces a playstyle on the group.

<snip>

Furthermore, you might find that a system without the treadmill, which many players consciously or otherwise find tiresome enough that it causes such campaigns to "usually end" might be engendered with a bit more longevity if rather than introducing a series of formulaic, set rewards, they require more effort to achieve a deeper immersion and satisfaction stemming from player driven goals. Those systematic, mechanical rewards are really just a veneer to keep players feeling as if they are satisfied in the moment, and don't really hook players for the longterm anyway.
I think you may be misunderstanding the nature of magic item rewards in a system like 4e, in which items of a certain "plus" are treated as default elements in PC build.

It is not a "treadmill" in which the players pointlessly run to stay in place while being tricked (by what means?) into thinking they are really earning rewards.

The pleasure that players receive in watching their numbers go up in 4e is certainly not a pleasure in greater real-world power. Which would, I think, be absurd.

Nor is it a pleasure in a greater likelihood of succeeding at the challenges the game throws up, because a GM who follows the published guidelines will respond to bigger PC numbers by boosting the numbers of the NPCs and monsters. In 4e, to the extent that players increase their likelihoods of succeeding at these challenges, it is because they improve their play, not because their numbers get bigger.

The pleasure in numbers getting bigger derives from the the ingame implications, namely, that the PC will now be confronting challenges carrying more ingame signficance, and thereby having the potential to carry more real-world story weight. To put it at its crudest, every +1 to hit or damage takes the PC that much closer to being able to confront Demogorgon and win. That is not a treadmill, and not an illusion - it is a genuine feature of the game. Changes in the numbers mean a change in the story - just as the PHB and DMG explain, the fictional scope and fictional stakes grow together with the PCs' numbers.

This is not the only way to play a fantasy RPG, and moreso not the only way to play D&D. It is obviously different to at least some extent from classic dungeon-exploration D&D, because it makes the developing story more important as a reward, and items per se become comparatively less important. But it is hardly a novel way to play D&D - Dragonlance is one early but not necessarily the earliest example (I'm sure some people played Against the Giants and its sequels, for example, more in this spirit than in a dungeon exploration and looting spirit). And presumably at least some of Paizo's Adventure Paths are intended to provide this sort of experience.

Not only is it not novel, but (in my view at least) it is not degenerate or dysfunctional. Nor does it have any particular connection to railroading - AP-style railroads are not the only way to run a game in which story, rather than prospects of success against the challenges the game throws up, does the bulk of the work of providing pleasure to the participants (I'm putting to one side here the generic pleasure the participants might get from playing a game well).

While not everyone wants to play this way, I don't think a game hoping to unify D&D players (in part by stealing market share back from Paizo) can afford to just ignore it, or to assume that it is something that can be tacked onto exploration and looting-style play as an afterthought.
 

FireLance

Legend
Judging by the rest of what you have written, you fully understand this relationship but simply see it as the way things ought to be. You describe it as restrictive but don't agree that the actual word should be used to describe it as such.
Actually, I don't see it as restrictive in the first place.

To use an analogy, I don't see the fact that 1 + 1 = 2 as restrictive. It just is.

And if I have control over the variables, getting the result I want is just a matter of changing the right numbers.
 

Hassassin

First Post
I think you may be misunderstanding the nature of magic item rewards in a system like 4e, in which items of a certain "plus" are treated as default elements in PC build.
[...]
The pleasure in numbers getting bigger derives from the the ingame implications, namely, that the PC will now be confronting challenges carrying more ingame signficance, and thereby having the potential to carry more real-world story weight. To put it at its crudest, every +1 to hit or damage takes the PC that much closer to being able to confront Demogorgon and win. That is not a treadmill, and not an illusion - it is a genuine feature of the game. Changes in the numbers mean a change in the story - just as the PHB and DMG explain, the fictional scope and fictional stakes grow together with the PCs' numbers.

If you look it like that - the reward is in being able to face more significant ingame challenges - what's the point of having magic items in the game? You would get the same reward just from level growth due to XP.
 

Connorsrpg

Adventurer
Firelance Wrote
If PC power is given, and the DM wants the PCs to encounter a specific monster and he wants the fight to provide a specific level of challenge, then yes, he needs to ensure that the PC's magic items are of a specific level of power (or adjust the situational factors). If, however, he is willing to change either the monster power or the level of difficulty, he can keep magic item power constant.

See, this is the whole reverse of what I am getting at. The monster might be there because it lives in the locale/terrain in the world in which the game is set and the PLAYER's chose to go there.

Then, I see it as the players doing all the adjusting, not the DM. "Do we have the right items to fight this? Do you think we should be fighting this? If not, then what are our options? Let's split!"

Sorry, but I try and approach games from within the game. I certainly do not think the DM needs to make all these adjustments. Players in our games make decisions on what their characters have, how they are going and what they encounter (based upon description, rumours, knowledge, etc - not whether the creature is of appropriate CR)....well, we used to :(
 
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delericho

Legend
In fact, I'm beginning to wonder if the true make-or-break point for all of 5e will not in fact be the system itself but its first few published adventures (setting the style for what comes later) and how well they are designed.

I think there's a lot of truth in this. In fact, I'm really starting to question the need for a new edition at all - it seems to me that they're just going to give us another slightly different way to do what we can already do anyway. For those of us who are already gamers, I'm inclined to think applying some serious thought to adventure design may well be more beneficial.

One possibly radical thing they could do for the first few adventures is to suggest different XP awards for each encounter based on how the party took on said encounter, as in: (let's assume an adventure for levels 1-3)

XP award (under no circumstances may more than one be given):
75 per character if Ogres defeated in combat.
100 per character if combat avoided by stealth or diplomacy.
125 per character if Ogres persuaded to join or help party.

Anyone think this might work?

I don't like it. If nothing else, what award to you give out if the PCs do something the DM/writer didn't think of?

More to the point, though, I don't think it's necessary to give out different awards for different solutions. I would argue that they'd get much the same effect if they just gave XP for "overcoming challenges", and made it very clear that that included using stealth and diplomacy. This is another area where the 3e DMG said the right things... but the published adventures just assumed that every monster was there to be fought and all challenges were to be overcome with a sword.
 

FireLance

Legend
Then, I see it as the players doing all the adjusting, not the DM. "Do we have the right items to fight this? Do you think we should be fighting this? If not, then what are our options? Let's split!"
To me, it doesn't really matter who does the adjusting; the math is still the same. It just gets really tiring to add the "or, in a more sandbox campaign" elaboration every time there's a difference.

That said, unless the DM is running a completely randomly generated world, he's going to have to make some decision about what monsters to put in it, and he might find it useful to factor his estimation of which monsters the PCs will find easy, tough and nearly impossible to defeat into that decision-making process.
 

Hassassin

First Post
I don't like it. If nothing else, what award to you give out if the PCs do something the DM/writer didn't think of?

More to the point, though, I don't think it's necessary to give out different awards for different solutions.

I agree. Giving the same xp for any way to solve the problem is simpler, scales better and doesn't favor a specific party make up (all fighters vs. all rogues). However, persuading the orges to join or help, rather than just avoiding the fight, is a different result and as such may warrant a different award.
 

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